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***Mithadan*** · 09-28-2000, 08:42 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 117</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Saulotus - Don't take the term "revisionist" as having a negative connotation. The whole point here is to discuss areas where the Sil. could or should be "revised". I raised the origin of orcs as an issue myself in an early thread in this section of the board. I did so recognizing that JRRT was inclined to change earlier conceptions of elves being corrupted into orcs per Morgoth's Ring. My personal preference, based upon a visceral feeling and not from any "authority", is that Morgoth corrupted elves. The story "feels" right that way. Nonetheless, if JRRT decided otherwise, well, he created the Mythos.

But I think there's room for doubt on the issue. Another example is the Orcs recognizing Orcrist and Glamdring. Per JRRT, Sauron taught Orcs the Black Speech because the various tribes/races each had their own languages. Would they be literate and educated enough to: (1) read the inscriptions written in Quenya or Sindarin; and (2)recognize the names from events that occurred about 6000 years before? To me, thats stretching the capabilities of "mannish" orcs to maintain accurate oral traditions for that long. Its more likely that the blades were recognized because some of the orcs were there. A first hand account is far less likely to be corrupted than a story that's 200 generations old.

I do like your multi-origin theory because it could fit. That would explain why some masterless orcs wander aimlessly while others could coordinate an attack upon Isildur at the Gladden Fields without guidance from Sauron.

As for round earth, I've always said that I like it, but its hard to make everything fit. Hard, not impossible. The problem is we have to rewrite big chunks of the Sil. without knowing how JRRT would have done it. Even the story of Earendil could be worked out without severely straining the imagination. But its our imagination not JRRT's, so it wouldn't be canon. Its one thing to say JRRT wanted round Arda, that can't be disputed. Its another thing to predict how he would fill in the spaces.

HerenIstarion - The multi origin idea doesn't preclude some portion of the Orcs creating blades to be used by bestial orcs. Amother issue is that we don't know the make up of the party that seized Merry and Pippin. They may have been elite troops, made up entirely of elvish/mannish orcs, all having fear. Though the fear issue makes it hard to work out how some trolls have speech. I don't buy the idea that trolls are corrupted ents. Other than size there's no resemblance.

Your earlier point about the source of the hatred between orcs and elves makes some sense, and matches up with why I viscerally prefer the theory of orcs deriving from elves.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 9/28/00 10:45:47 pm

09-28-2000, 08:42 PM	#12
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,393	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 117</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Orcish Fear Saulotus - Don't take the term "revisionist" as having a negative connotation. The whole point here is to discuss areas where the Sil. could or should be "revised". I raised the origin of orcs as an issue myself in an early thread in this section of the board. I did so recognizing that JRRT was inclined to change earlier conceptions of elves being corrupted into orcs per Morgoth's Ring. My personal preference, based upon a visceral feeling and not from any "authority", is that Morgoth corrupted elves. The story "feels" right that way. Nonetheless, if JRRT decided otherwise, well, he created the Mythos. But I think there's room for doubt on the issue. Another example is the Orcs recognizing Orcrist and Glamdring. Per JRRT, Sauron taught Orcs the Black Speech because the various tribes/races each had their own languages. Would they be literate and educated enough to: (1) read the inscriptions written in Quenya or Sindarin; and (2)recognize the names from events that occurred about 6000 years before? To me, thats stretching the capabilities of "mannish" orcs to maintain accurate oral traditions for that long. Its more likely that the blades were recognized because some of the orcs were there. A first hand account is far less likely to be corrupted than a story that's 200 generations old. I do like your multi-origin theory because it could fit. That would explain why some masterless orcs wander aimlessly while others could coordinate an attack upon Isildur at the Gladden Fields without guidance from Sauron. As for round earth, I've always said that I like it, but its hard to make everything fit. Hard, not impossible. The problem is we have to rewrite big chunks of the Sil. without knowing how JRRT would have done it. Even the story of Earendil could be worked out without severely straining the imagination. But its our imagination not JRRT's, so it wouldn't be canon. Its one thing to say JRRT wanted round Arda, that can't be disputed. Its another thing to predict how he would fill in the spaces. HerenIstarion - The multi origin idea doesn't preclude some portion of the Orcs creating blades to be used by bestial orcs. Amother issue is that we don't know the make up of the party that seized Merry and Pippin. They may have been elite troops, made up entirely of elvish/mannish orcs, all having fear. Though the fear issue makes it hard to work out how some trolls have speech. I don't buy the idea that trolls are corrupted ents. Other than size there's no resemblance. Your earlier point about the source of the hatred between orcs and elves makes some sense, and matches up with why I viscerally prefer the theory of orcs deriving from elves. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 9/28/00 10:45:47 pm __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.