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**lindil** · 10-20-2002, 01:55 AM

Here are posts from the now stickied **FAQ/INTRO to the Forum/Project thread**.

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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Well, let me first state that I am very pleasantly suprised with how this is lined up. I am pretty new here, extremely interested in the project and have of course, some questions. But overall, this is very good. Some of what I have to ask may appear silly, but I hope not too much. One of the things I like this so much is because I am a bit critical of how CT handled some things in the Sil '77 (despite that being a superb work and he did very well, the last three volumes of HoME have simply been an eye-opener). I guess this project is still at its beginning (realistically) and there is loads of work to be done. I would certainly hope that I can be of help, for the love of the Sil, as you said it would be great to bring som e order to the legendarium chaos.

1. Are we creating a canon silmarillion or are we including the canon works in an "all-round" Silmarillion, which includes the most canon and interesting works that present no serious complication with the rest. I suppose it is the second because one is almost impossible for various reasons. Thought? This is party explained by the Third principle you mentioned, but I just want to have this clear <img src=smile.gif ALT=" [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]">

2. The index of HoME (and the content of the volumes) you are looking for is this one:

http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.htmlwww.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.html</a>

The index of all the writings in a chronological order is here:

http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.htmlwww.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.html</a>

3. "theLotR and RGEO and the Hobbit are 'canon' the current 1977/2001 Silmarillion is not - that is our whole goal , to incorporate as much as possible of JRRT's writings [especially from X,XI,XII and UT ] as possible into the framework of the Silmarillion as possible to create a literary canon out of what is currently 'Legendarium chaos" end quote

A worthwile aim. Nothing to comment on.

4. You may want to reconsider your thoughts about this being published, I think it might very well be. This project may take years and a lot can happen in the mean time.Keep your fingers crossed anyway.

5. I agree that a lot of folk will be scared of by (yet?) another commitment. This is pretty difficult and you have to know your stuff as well. The number of folks that have read HoME aren't that many. There are a couple very good ones (posters) here though. I'll put the link in my sig at Tolkienonline

6. Will the new Silmarillion consist out of three volumes? Why? Or did you just divide the book into three main parts and I shouldn't see them as separate volumes?

7. What is the official name for the new Sil? Can we come to an abbreviation? That's always handy <img src=smile.gif ALT=" [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]">

8. Re: "6a + FINWE AND MIRIEL"

Perhaps we can consider the early and later versions of it in Morgoth's Ring

9. Re: "15 OF FINROD AND ANDRETH "

A must.

10. Re: "17 - BEREN AND LUTHIEN"

Have you considered the parts in which Thingol actually goes out to fight Boldog and the Orcs to save Luthien, taking with him Mablung and Beleg Cuthalion? You may name them the Wars of Luthien. It also involved Celegorm and Curufin, who wished to set him up, by the use of Luthien in a different way from the Sil. I think Thingol encountered Thu (Sauron as well). It is quite different and I have to check , but I remember that a lot of people found it very exciting, much better than the current one. All found in .III of course

11. I definitly recommend inserting the small part in the Narn of Hurin gathering his Men and departing for the Nirnaeth. Perhaps also show how he felt about the war,how he was completely convinced that no one could defeat the Elves. Tell this in a narrative manner of course.

12. Re: "OF THE WANDERINGS OF HURIN and OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH
add from II ?,IV,V [and later sketches of Hurin?] or
[and I consider this more feasable]use CRT's chapter from the 77"

War of the Jewels of course for the Wanderings of Hurin. Aside from that, I think CT 's chapter was very good, the Ruin of Doriath one. You may want to consider different versions of the taking of the Nauglamir and slaying of Thingol, Mablung's defense etc.

13. Re: "THE FALL OF GONDOLIN"

Very important to get this right, virtually everyone loves this. I would keep things from BolT II as limited as you can because it really has little relation to the later writings anymore, I hope you will agree. Use only that which is plausible. No metal dragons of course. But there is a thread on this anyway. The Balrog thing can easily be fixed by going with the later versions of them, the much more powerful. ones. Abandon Tuor slaying five of them with his axe for instance, for obvious reasons.

14.Re; "Volume III"

are you sure about so much linguistical material in it? Etymologies? And you would think I would cheer for the Lhammas <img src=wink.gif ALT=" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]">

Further, If you are going to list the chapter about the Istari and of Glorfindel, which again, is an excellent call, you should really addt he part about Cirdan which can be found in Last Writings , HoMe XII, it is great and shed light on his character.

A problem would be including the incredibly complicated Wanderings of Galadriel and Celeborn. I am not so sure it is possible to create a decent version out of this mess. Tar-Elenion might still be interested in posting an essay of some sort about this, he mentioned it in either the "geneologies" or "Parentage of Gil-galad" thread. As said, this is quite difficult but essentiall of you feel you must include it.

15. Get Cian to come here !! (provided he has the time)

Cheers
Pengolodh

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000097>Pengolod h</A> at: 6/10/01 12:30:18 pm

Pengolodh
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posted June 11, 2001 04:21 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

I'm unsure about the date of the writings about Thingol going out and the Wars of Luthien. I would have to check. The story, of course, isn't finished, but more is later told about it in the Notes and Commentary.
"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

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Pengolodh
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posted June 11, 2001 01:40 PM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil, I would suggest omitting these four parts of the outline:

-The Quest for Erebor
- The Hunt for the Ring
-The Battles of the Fords of Isen
-Cirion and Eorl

As much as I loved to read about the account of the Battle at the Fords of Isen, I really don't think it deserves a place in the Silmarillion. I believe Tolkien mentioned several times that the SIlmarillion was primarily a background story for the Elves and Men in the First Age and their war against Morgoth. I think a quick summary of the second age by the Akallabeth and "of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" was already very good in the publ. Silmarillion and certainly doesn't need further expanding with chapters such as Cirion and Eorl or an account of the Quest of Erebor such as found in UT.

As said, the tales are nice, but not for a Silmarillion. I understand that it is a general outline, but I think it would be wrong to expand on so much of the Third Age. I would try to keep that in the area of what we see in CT's Silmarillion. The Sil was a background story for all the ages perhaps, but specifically and very much directed to everything centering the First Age. Too much of the Second and Third Age would take away from that, and is, aside from that, unnecessary.

another note, why not make one chapter out of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin and "the fall of Gondolin"?

Cheers

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

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lindil
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posted June 11, 2001 11:54 PM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

P. I think you are right and I believe I stated a question as to how far to go w/ the late 3rd age material. I think a case could be made for Cirion and Eorl as it is the only tale from the that point of the 3rd age and it reveals quite a bit about Gondor's traditions re: Elendil; and Erebor , only because it takes the Legendarium right up to the Hobbit. But the LotR material is out of place for sure. I will take Hunt for the ring and the Battle for the Fords off soon.
As for splitting Gondolin it was suggested in the FoG thread that as there is such a large chronological gap, we might as well make use of it to soften the radical shift in writing style that would otherwise take place.
It seems at least worth reading through the FoG both ways once [God willing] the drafts are done.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe , and Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod saith " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor...then Eru must come in to conquer him.

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Pengolodh
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posted June 15, 2001 07:26 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil

I suppose a case can be made for Cirion and Eorl because of the Tradition of Isildur and such that is in it, but why have this in anyway? Would it not be to extensive? Same goes for an epilogue to the LoTR.

I could imagine the Palantiri essay being included simply because the Palantiri have their origin in the ages even before the First. The Istari essay on the other hand....

I guess those sort of decisions are more easily made of we could establish how large the second and Third Age "Appendices" should be. The Istari essay is a great essay, no doubt, but my problem is with its relevance. If we're going for a "be as informative and comprehensive as we can" project, then yes,undoubtedly they should be in. Not critiscizing, just suggesting. The info about the Wizards would still be available for readers in Unfinished Tales . The Istaru and their reason for being in M-e are already mentioned in " of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" I believe.

On another but related note, why separate chapters for "the Siege of Angband", "the building of Gondolin" and "of the Dwarves"?

Is there perhaps a thread on why these chapters have been added? Or are we literally copying from WotJ, ~the Building of Gondolin~ etc. Especially a separate chapter about the Siege of Angband sounds trange to me.

Cheers

Ps, would it be a suitable idea to have all three Tales of Years following each other up, with nothing in between? It would provide a very clear overview of the events? There is nothing wrong with having them separate, but this seems a litlle clearer. Just something I personally would have preferred. An overview of all ages at once.

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

Edited by: Pengolodh at: 6/15/01 9:06:22 am

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lindil
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posted June 16, 2001 09:24 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

P asked : Is there perhaps a thread on why these chapters have been added? Or are we literally copying from WotJ.

L: yes I took the chapter titles and placement largely out of X and XI, as these represent JRRT's last efforts. While I am like many others used to the QS77-o1 arrangement , I see no reason to stick to it when the author had a later conception, or practicality suggests something else, as in the case of seperating Tuor's coming and the FoG due to serious stylistic [and qualitative discrepancies], I think much of the updated BoLT material is good enough to use ,but looks more awkward when placed in direct continuation w/ the UTTuor ,which[along w/ everything from that 50's era] I think has some of his most polished prose.

Well I am a little ticked EZ board has once again consumed labouriously produced material which i forgot to save - namely the first post of this thread the introduction! grrrrrr. Did anyone happen to copy it?

In general though I think a meticulous going over of th my [not THE ] outline might be better saved for a post FoG period. It is only my opinion based on the idea's I ahve come up w/ and the idea's I liked here on the board. A couple other q's are best answered by notice of the question marks associated w/ a given entry. This means it is in doubt. the entire late third age section does I believe have a comment preceding it to that effect. Well I have to go and see if by chance I did save all of that FAQ/intro and thread material.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.

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Pengolodh
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posted June 28, 2001 08:05 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil, I don't usually correct spelling or omittions of little relevance but I think you may want to change " but has indicated that he will (NOT) change any more than the Sil 2001, in your first post. It might be a bit confusing and if he in fact was, well, we could cooperate then (he said arrogantly
"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

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Telchar
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posted June 29, 2001 07:22 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

GREAT OUTLINE!

Damnit - I want in!!! - Well as I've told you earlier lindil my spare time available for this project is limited - but I hope very much to get more time on my hands when I've moved and gotten my DSL line up! In the meantime I would, if possible, love to survey what you guys are doing in the "Translation for the Elvish-forum" - for now on a D/E-level - later maybe more... so...?
Ohh BtW my bookshop just called me today to say that XII that I had ordered home had arrived ...

Telchar

Anar kaluva tielyanna!

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lindil
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posted July 02, 2001 01:34 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Telchar you are on

Participate as you can. I will email w/ the "council member packet" please reply to let me know if you receive it.
applicable to all new members.

Also - would any of the current members be willing to do the membership processing/secretarial work of sending out the 'packets'?

My machine is very slow and emailing [believe it or not] eat's seriously into what time I have for this. thanks for considering it.

-lindil
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.

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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Telchar
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posted July 05, 2001 03:01 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Hi Lindil
Was I to recieve something by mail??? At least I haven't yet! just so you know if you have tried to mail me...

T

Anar kaluva tielyanna!

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Posts: 1723 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
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posted July 07, 2001 01:25 AM
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Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Project

HTML Comments are not allowed
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.

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HerenIstarion
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posted July 27, 2001 08:17 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

D for me so far as well, if you please
GeorgeLashkhi

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Posts: 2181 | From: Tbilisi, Georgia | Registered: Sep 2000

Eldar14
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posted August 22, 2001 10:33 PM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

Lindil,
I really want to join in on this project, but I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to help very often, starting a new school year and all. Probably only about once a week. But of course, before I officially request to join in, I'm gonna have to read all the posts in this section of the forum. Hopefully it won't take me too long

Eldar glances at the number of posts in this section

ack! this is gonna take forever!!

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lindil
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posted August 23, 2001 11:58 AM
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Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

welcome eldar 14!
once a week would be alot more than I have been around in the last month!
my sincerest apologies to all for a severe breach of etiquette.
I have hardly turned my computer lately due to domestic chaos of several and sundry types. i hope to pop in a few times a week minimum till things regularize for me.

H-I I will send any missing password to you if you do not already have it.again apologies for neglect.

can anyone who has joined or considers themselves actively involved [and whose name does not already appear in the intro thread] and wishes to be listed in the members section of the intro please pipe up here,so I can get you on.

Osanwe,
Tar Ost-in-Eruhir.
'In the begining was the Word. And the Word was with God.And the Word is God'.

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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Ulmo
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posted January 01, 2002 09:32 AM
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Wow, this is a very interesting project! You guys definitely know your stuff. I would like to provide input, but I think I better finish reading UT and HoME first.
When you guys are finished, you should definitely try to get this published. Someone needs to shoot Christopher an e-mail about this.

Keep up the good work guys!

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ulmo ]

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Lord of the seas and one of the greatest of the Valar; in the dark days of the First Age, he kept watch on Elves and Men while the others of his order remained in Valinor. He is famed for bringing Tuor to Gondolin, and so ultimately bringing about the downfall of Morgoth in the War of Wrath.

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Variag of Khand
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posted January 22, 2002 11:48 AM
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Lindil et.al. I think this is a worthy project and all the best with it. The best way I can help you is give you some pointers on running projects generally. Most projects run on the energy and enthusiasm of the participants, and fall over because of lack of organisation. At the very least, a bit of clarity at the outset will save time later.
I'd advise you to draw up a 'Terms of Reference' for the project. This should be a brief statement (such as would fit on 2 sides of A4 paper, font size 10 or 12!) which sets out a number of key things about the project, in a way that is clear and unambiguous for all that are involved, especially as, on a long, collective effort inevitably people will come and go.

What should it include?

1. Goals - the overall vision of what you are doing and why.
2. Objectives - what you specifically aim to achieve. How will you know you have finished, is a good question to ask here.
3. Scope - by which is meant rules for determining what you do and do not do. E.G. you could exclude expansion of 2nd and 3rd age narrative.
4. Approach - you should think about what the key steps you are going to take and in what order
5. Risks and issues - ask yourself what problems you think you face, and what you can do about them.
6. Assumptions. If you are making any, note them, and try to validate them.
7. Roles and responsibilities. Very important. Try to understand (1) how decisions will be taken, and (2) who is responsible for keeping things on track.

It might seem a pain to do this but EVERY project manager worth his salt will tell you the same. Trust me, it will be worth it. From the posts I've read you do know most of this anyway. But writing it down so you can refer to it will serve you well. PS just because you've written it down doesn't mean you can't change it if needed!

I hope that's helpful and good luck!

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Mithadan
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posted January 24, 2002 08:55 PM
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I'm in.
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"And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them..."

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lindil
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posted January 25, 2002 01:31 AM
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Variag- much thanks for your input, we are honored as you seem to have registered to put your above first post up, hopefully you will continue to check in and monitor our efforts and give us your thoughts.
Your outline is very succinct and may well prove a cornerstone in our next attempt to organize our project.
I am not sure if you have seen our 'principles ' thread this has our closest thing to a mission statement.
we, the active members of the group, are in agreement on most things re: deciding canon, it is the literary and aesthetic aspect which we have not yet decided how to approach, but we have recently been discussing the need to review our princioples in order to deal w/ the Balrog and dragon issues before us in the fall of Gondolin.
again thanks.
Mithadan - a pleasure as always.

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Thingol
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posted February 01, 2002 05:56 PM
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I am curious to know once the council has voted on a topic if the general public could find out what the final outcome is? I wouldn't want to see who voted which way, merely the final outcome itself. I am very curious about the number of Balrogs you will include or not include as well as several other topics. However, I totaly understand if you wish this to remain private.
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Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

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lindil
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posted February 03, 2002 07:51 AM
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Soo far Thingol, [since we have a handful of participants] all has been done by informal consensus. There are no secret polls to show. When this does occur, your idea is a good one and I will do my best to remember to post any TftE poll results in this forum also. As for now in the Balrog disc. and in FoG - a project you are seeing all.
-lindil

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project

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Why Emus
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posted February 06, 2002 12:06 AM
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Count me in as a general observer, for now.
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Warlord_of_Blood
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posted April 05, 2002 02:30 PM
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I would seriously like to help you in this endeavor. I am a tolkien fanatic and would be pleased If I could be of service. Mhoram can back me up on that
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Mhoram
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posted April 05, 2002 02:58 PM
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I'm afraid the project seems to be at a standstill, just go through the threads and offer whatever you can and make new threads as needed. One day the excitement will come back around here and your contributions will be taken into account. That's what i've been doing.
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\m/ Lyrics...wasted time between guitar solos! \m/

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Aiwendil
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posted April 06, 2002 02:13 PM
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Well, Lindil (sort of our nominal leader) has been away for a little bit, so yes, it's been slow lately. I'm sure as soon as he's back things will pick up. We've more or less concluded work on the Fall of Gondolin, and the next step will be to actually take all the emendations and create a single text. I don't doubt that new problems will arise in that process.
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Tirinvo
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posted April 09, 2002 12:01 PM
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I have told Lindil i wanted to help, and i have tried on the A level, but i am afraid that i could not revise very good because i don't want to change something important!
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Hlar i engwi enyë quet
Utuvien melmë hendiryasse
Anquildëa alcareryassë

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lindil
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posted June 24, 2002 03:28 AM
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For the newer folks and visitors I am upping the thread.
[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project

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Valedain
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posted July 01, 2002 03:26 PM
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I'd like to participate as a C or D class flunkie. I haven't done all the requisite reading -- only Silm, UT, and HoMe 1-3 so far -- but I should be able to handle some general editing chores. It'll give me a Tolkien fix when I'm not working on my own extremely slow Silm-related project.
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Kaiser Valarauka Valedain
Intern of the White Hand,
Dunlend Development Agency

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Maédhros
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posted July 05, 2002 03:46 PM
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Wow, I'm way impressed at what you have been doing, and i would like to help. I really love the Silmarillion, and I have just finished reading Morgoth's Ring. I will purchase the War of the Jewels soon.
If I may be so bold, i would like to participate as a C Member.
Amazing work, I'm truly impressed.
Please let me know If i can help.
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.

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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Amanaduial the archer
Ghost Prince of Cardolan

Member # 1907

Member Rated:

posted July 05, 2002 03:55 PM
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Woah! This looks amazing! Am I allowed to join? Im also kinda a tolkien fanatic as well, although i may not be alot on some people. Please can I join? Probably section c?
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Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
-*Äм@ήǻðµΐαł*

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Posts: 748 | From: the depths of a troubled mind | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight

Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted July 07, 2002 02:38 PM
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Valedain, Maedhros, and Amanaduial: you're all, of course, welcome to join in. Don't worry if you haven't read all the HoMe stuff yet.
Our current status is that we're nearly finished with a revised version of the Fall of Gondolin, incorporating much of the material in the Book of Lost Tales version. Most of the discussion relating to this project is found in the thread 'A Project: Revising the Fall of Gondolin'. There are a few matters still to be decided for the Fall of Gondolin, two of which have their own spin-off threads, 'Mechanical Monsters' and 'The 7 Names of Gondolin'. We'd be most appreciative for any insights, comments, or discussion on either of these threads.

Aside from that, we have the task of actually posting the revised narrative, incorporating the various corrections we've made (there should be a recent thread where I catalogued the locations of these various corrections). The narrative itself is right now being posted in the private forum; if you want access to that, all you have to do is e-mail lindil and tell him that you'd like to be a member, and he'll send you the password.

Please don't be daunted by the length of some of the discussions you'll find here! It's really not necessary in most cases to read the entire thread; you can just skim most of them and pick up the main points.

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lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted July 08, 2002 06:22 PM
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Greetings to Amanaduial, maedhros and Valedain. As Aiwendil, the main project worker has succinctly said the main info as to our current phase is listed in the aforementioned threads. Do not be so concerned over the exact natureof involvement. just read up, follow the discussions [ they come in decided bursts] and then chime in as appropriate. [ Feel like you have nothing to add? hey encouragement is always welcome - and needed in this basement barrow !]
I will going aweay for a couple of weeks at the end of June and will prob have no access to a pc. so it would be great to get a solid beging to the transition down as it seems as impossible to transfer the old sections re: the transition w/ out a crazy amount of re-editing [ I tried several times anmd they all failed.] I suppose we must go ahead and start the thread from scratch. ahhhhhhh........
I hope to hop on it tonight.

aagin welcome to the project and do email for the passwords.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project

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Posts: 992 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Valedain
Pile O'Bones

Member # 3538

Rate Member
posted July 09, 2002 01:16 PM
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quote:
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I will going aweay for a couple of weeks at the end of June.
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I am afraid you've missed your vacation, Lindil.

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Kaiser Valarauka Valedain
Intern of the White Hand,
Dunlend Development Agency

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lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted July 10, 2002 11:58 AM
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rrggghhh I hate that , I will have to taje another one. july 31-aug 12.
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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project

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Maédhros
Wight

Member # 3182

Rate Member
posted July 27, 2002 10:41 AM
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Hello, I have recently joined the project, yet i went to a vacation and now I´m lost. Can someone tell me what is it that you´re working so that I can help with that.
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.

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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight

Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted July 28, 2002 07:11 PM
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Well, things have been sort of slow here in the past few weeks. I've been typing up a text for the Fall of Gondolin incorporating the approved changes, and I'll post in on the other forum as soon as I'm done.
In the meantime, any comments on the '7 Names of Gondolin' thread or the 'Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin' would be most appreciated.

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Maédhros
Wight

Member # 3182

Rate Member
posted July 28, 2002 08:48 PM
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I'm on it then!
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.

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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted August 19, 2002 09:34 AM
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For folks interested ion signing up, I have yet to revise the participation categories but essentially they will be this, eliminated.
Just participate as you can and in area's that you have some understanding or time to learn.For instance don't vote on Mechanical dragons [ a vote coming soon btw] if you have not read the thread or pondered it. If you have go for it. That is the basic sort of rule. I hope to update the opening Outline post soon till then - this is the 'official' update. Nd hey if we get more active members we can vote on something like this instead of me just pontificating

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project

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lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted October 10, 2002 10:40 AM
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I have instituted a new system of *'ing whereby those who come in new, can look at all of the posts in the forum at a glance and know which are the essential and active threads and "official project" threads [denoted by **] and which are the inactive but "official project threads" [ i.e. important but can be read later].
A thread w/ no asterix [most of them] indicates that the thread is of a general nature to the project and contains much [ or some info] but is not an official discussion thread tied directly to the current efforts [ Genealogy of the Noldor is a perfect example].

Only moderators or those so designated by the group should use the asteriks to indicate status.

I hope to put this up in the FAQ's soon.

Pengolodh
Haunting Spirit

Member # 97

Rate Member
posted June 10, 2001 12:17 PM
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Animated Skeleton
Posts: 42

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Well, let me first state that I am very pleasantly suprised with how this is lined up. I am pretty new here, extremely interested in the project and have of course, some questions. But overall, this is very good. Some of what I have to ask may appear silly, but I hope not too much. One of the things I like this so much is because I am a bit critical of how CT handled some things in the Sil '77 (despite that being a superb work and he did very well, the last three volumes of HoME have simply been an eye-opener). I guess this project is still at its beginning (realistically) and there is loads of work to be done. I would certainly hope that I can be of help, for the love of the Sil, as you said it would be great to bring som e order to the legendarium chaos.

1. Are we creating a canon silmarillion or are we including the canon works in an "all-round" Silmarillion, which includes the most canon and interesting works that present no serious complication with the rest. I suppose it is the second because one is almost impossible for various reasons. Thought? This is party explained by the Third principle you mentioned, but I just want to have this clear

2. The index of HoME (and the content of the volumes) you are looking for is this one:
www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.html

The index of all the writings in a chronological order is here:
www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.html

3. "theLotR and RGEO and the Hobbit are 'canon' the current 1977/2001 Silmarillion is not - that is our whole goal , to incorporate as much as possible of JRRT's writings [especially from X,XI,XII and UT ] as possible into the framework of the Silmarillion as possible to create a literary canon out of what is currently 'Legendarium chaos" end quote

A worthwile aim. Nothing to comment on.

4. You may want to reconsider your thoughts about this being published, I think it might very well be. This project may take years and a lot can happen in the mean time.Keep your fingers crossed anyway.

5. I agree that a lot of folk will be scared of by (yet?) another commitment. This is pretty difficult and you have to know your stuff as well. The number of folks that have read HoME aren't that many. There are a couple very good ones (posters) here though. I'll put the link in my sig at Tolkienonline

6. Will the new Silmarillion consist out of three volumes? Why? Or did you just divide the book into three main parts and I shouldn't see them as separate volumes?

7. What is the official name for the new Sil? Can we come to an abbreviation? That's always handy

8. Re: "6a + FINWE AND MIRIEL"

Perhaps we can consider the early and later versions of it in Morgoth's Ring

9. Re: "15 OF FINROD AND ANDRETH "

A must.

10. Re: "17 - BEREN AND LUTHIEN"

Have you considered the parts in which Thingol actually goes out to fight Boldog and the Orcs to save Luthien, taking with him Mablung and Beleg Cuthalion? You may name them the Wars of Luthien. It also involved Celegorm and Curufin, who wished to set him up, by the use of Luthien in a different way from the Sil. I think Thingol encountered Thu (Sauron as well). It is quite different and I have to check , but I remember that a lot of people found it very exciting, much better than the current one. All found in .III of course

11. I definitly recommend inserting the small part in the Narn of Hurin gathering his Men and departing for the Nirnaeth. Perhaps also show how he felt about the war,how he was completely convinced that no one could defeat the Elves. Tell this in a narrative manner of course.

12. Re: "OF THE WANDERINGS OF HURIN and OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH
add from II ?,IV,V [and later sketches of Hurin?] or
[and I consider this more feasable]use CRT's chapter from the 77"

War of the Jewels of course for the Wanderings of Hurin. Aside from that, I think CT 's chapter was very good, the Ruin of Doriath one. You may want to consider different versions of the taking of the Nauglamir and slaying of Thingol, Mablung's defense etc.

13. Re: "THE FALL OF GONDOLIN"

Very important to get this right, virtually everyone loves this. I would keep things from BolT II as limited as you can because it really has little relation to the later writings anymore, I hope you will agree. Use only that which is plausible. No metal dragons of course. But there is a thread on this anyway. The Balrog thing can easily be fixed by going with the later versions of them, the much more powerful. ones. Abandon Tuor slaying five of them with his axe for instance, for obvious reasons.

14.Re; "Volume III"

are you sure about so much linguistical material in it? Etymologies? And you would think I would cheer for the Lhammas

Further, If you are going to list the chapter about the Istari and of Glorfindel, which again, is an excellent call, you should really addt he part about Cirdan which can be found in Last Writings , HoMe XII, it is great and shed light on his character.

A problem would be including the incredibly complicated Wanderings of Galadriel and Celeborn. I am not so sure it is possible to create a decent version out of this mess. Tar-Elenion might still be interested in posting an essay of some sort about this, he mentioned it in either the "geneologies" or "Parentage of Gil-galad" thread. As said, this is quite difficult but essentiall of you feel you must include it.

15. Get Cian to come here !! (provided he has the time)

Cheers
Pengolodh

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

Edited by: Pengolodh at: 6/10/01 12:30:18 pm

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Posts: 64 | From: | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted June 11, 2001 02:49 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 634

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

P:Well, let me first state that I am very pleasantly suprised
with how this is lined up.
L;Well where we are now is the result of 1 year and 700 plus posts, from a large variety of contributors] [few of them short or trivial - often mini-essays, if not full-blown ones] and alot of discussion and exploration, it may not have yeilded much in terms of texts but it sure has been an eyeopener to what really needs to be done to get from 77/01 to a revised Silm.

P: 1. Are we creating a canon silmarillion or are we including
the canon works in an "all-round" Silmarillion, which includes
the most canon and interesting works that present no
serious complication with the rest. I suppose it is the second
because one is almost impossible for various reasons.
Thought? This is party explained by the Third principle you
mentioned, but I just want to have this clear

lindil: My stated preference is def, for what you seem to reffering to as an all-around work, not a 'quenta Silmarillion' in the pure sense- by that meaning a synopsis of the full tales. Indeed that is a valid criticism of the effort - but I see little choice since we are left w/ such a mixed collection of materials and since JRRT left so many gaps in the Long versions [such as Tuor, the Narn] and gaps or very old versions in the shorter QS texts [such as Doriath and Earendil]. I also feel and this is pure personal preference which however seems be shared by a majority [ if admittedly not universally] that having all of the tales woven together as best as they can be is far prefferable aesthetically than the current state of the Legendarium. BTW - I agree that CRT did a very good job on the 77, given missing manuscripts,pressure to get a Silmarillion out and the unbelievable business of having so many manuscripts and no computer- it is a good thing but I think we all agree,Unfinished/History/VT gives an opprotunity to make of the Silmarillion much more than it currently is, and shows it to be the in many ways more vast and deep work

P: 2. The index of HoME (and the content of the volumes) you
are looking for is this one:

lindil: --Thanks that's the one

P:4. You may want to reconsider your thoughts about this
being published, I think it might very well be. This project
may take years and a lot can happen in the mean time.Keep
your fingers crossed anyway.

lindil:I am certainly open to the possibility,we have been warned [rathrer intelligently I think that it is extremely doubtful that any blackmarket efforts will ever get sanction, but as the blind man said 'we shall see'.

P: 5. I agree that a lot of folk will be scared of by (yet?) another
commitment. This is pretty difficult and you have to know
your stuff as well. The number of folks that have read HoME
aren't that many. There are a couple very good ones
(posters) here though.
lindil: I do not think the forum has ever been so strong myself, I am very encouraged.

P: I'll put the link in my sig at
Tolkienonline
lindil: excellent, it is probably one of our best advertising tools, and you can't beat the price.

P: 6. Will the new Silmarillion consist out of three volumes?
Why? Or did you just divide the book into three main parts
and I shouldn't see them as separate volumes?

lindil: the 3 vol. thing comes from a combination of impulses, #1 it won't all fit in an ordinary sized book,#2 Bilbo's '3 [green ?}Volumes of Translations from the Elvish, I vaguely recall JRRT saying somewhere it would take 3 books, or maybe that it would be 3x's larger than LotR [which if you had a complete QS and the long versions of the 3 'great tales' a lay or 2, a complete Elvish dictionary and Lhammas,the Athrabeth, Quendi and Eldar, the second age material, Annals,etc, etc. you have something that prob. would be close to 3x the LotR. as it is what I have outlined is I would guess as big, and there is alot we simply do not have. But let me reiterate, the outline is my compilation of what i would do left alone, I am much more interested in a group process for a variety of reasons and I expect the contents will shift as more detil is discussed, there are - one may note , several question marks after various texts and ideas and these indicate that I have no solid opinion on the matter, so even if my outline was accepted in whole [which would be unlikely] there is still much to decide.

P: 7. What is the official name for the new Sil? Can we come to
an abbreviation? That's always handy
lindil: a good question to solicit input on.
I would not mind a 'official' name for the project, say the New [or Revised] Silmarillion Council, clearly another item for a group decision.

P: 10. Re: "17 - BEREN AND LUTHIEN"

Have you considered the parts in which Thingol actually goes
out to fight Boldog and the Orcs to save Luthien, taking with
him Mablung and Beleg Cuthalion? You may name them the
Wars of Luthien. It also involved Celegorm and Curufin, who
wished to set him up, by the use of Luthien in a different
way from the Sil. I think Thingol encountered Thu (Sauron as
well). It is quite different and I have to check , but I
remember that a lot of people found it very exciting, much
better than the current one. All found in .III of course.

Lindil:No , I hadn't thought of it. is it in the 30's Lay or the 50's Lay recommenced? I read through much of it recently and missed it completely.

see you too can be a 'C' reader and try and revise the Silmarillion. [american political humour]

P: 14.Re; "Volume III"
are you sure about so much linguistical material in it?
Etymologies?
lindil: not sure at all - i think there is a '?' there .I think it would be great if it could be done but it will have to be left for the linguistic specialists to decide methinks.JRRT did outline [ on p202 HB lost road] a four part silmarillion w/ the Lhammas at the end and the 77/01 ,UT, and Home pretty much all have elvish wordlists at the end.

P: Further, If you are going to list the chapter about the Istari
and of Glorfindel, which again, is an excellent call, you should
really addt he part about Cirdan which can be found in Last
Writings , HoMe XII, it is great and shed light on his
character.
lindil: you are right , when I was revising the outline I peeked in Last writings to see if I was missing anything and that slipped by.
Both Cirdan and Glorfindel might do better inteerspersed as the events happen chronologicaly, such as his command from the valar not to attempt to follow the Teleri departing to Valinor.

P:A problem would be including the incredibly complicated
Wanderings of Galadriel and Celeborn. I am not so sure it is
possible to create a decent version out of this mess.

lindil: we only take what can be used w/ out contradiction . I thibk there is much of value esp. re: the War of the elves and Sauron, Amroth and such. We will see - if we make it that far.
P: Tar-Elenion might still be interested in posting an essay of
some sort about this, he mentioned it in either the
"geneologies" or "Parentage of Gil-galad" thread.
lindil: I hope so!

P: 15. Get Cian to come here !! (provided he has the time)

lindil: I will ask. I read over an old reply to an eriol/Aelfwine query in the books, it was excellent.

welcome aboard the project. Pengoldh,Aiwendil and Jallanite

sincerly,
lindil
P.S. as I mentioned on the FoG thread, I[and other Silm prj. old timers] have some info I make available to members of the council so if you do not have a linkt to your email [and maybe do not want one!] send me an email privately.
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe , and Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod saith " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor...then Eru must come in to conquer him.

Edited by: lindil at: 6/11/01 8:14:47 am

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Pengolodh
Haunting Spirit

Member # 97

Rate Member
posted June 11, 2001 04:21 AM
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Posts: 47

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

I'm unsure about the date of the writings about Thingol going out and the Wars of Luthien. I would have to check. The story, of course, isn't finished, but more is later told about it in the Notes and Commentary.
"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

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Posts: 64 | From: | Registered: Apr 2001

Pengolodh
Haunting Spirit

Member # 97

Rate Member
posted June 11, 2001 01:40 PM
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Animated Skeleton
Posts: 48

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil, I would suggest omitting these four parts of the outline:

-The Quest for Erebor
- The Hunt for the Ring
-The Battles of the Fords of Isen
-Cirion and Eorl

As much as I loved to read about the account of the Battle at the Fords of Isen, I really don't think it deserves a place in the Silmarillion. I believe Tolkien mentioned several times that the SIlmarillion was primarily a background story for the Elves and Men in the First Age and their war against Morgoth. I think a quick summary of the second age by the Akallabeth and "of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" was already very good in the publ. Silmarillion and certainly doesn't need further expanding with chapters such as Cirion and Eorl or an account of the Quest of Erebor such as found in UT.

As said, the tales are nice, but not for a Silmarillion. I understand that it is a general outline, but I think it would be wrong to expand on so much of the Third Age. I would try to keep that in the area of what we see in CT's Silmarillion. The Sil was a background story for all the ages perhaps, but specifically and very much directed to everything centering the First Age. Too much of the Second and Third Age would take away from that, and is, aside from that, unnecessary.

another note, why not make one chapter out of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin and "the fall of Gondolin"?

Cheers

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

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Posts: 64 | From: | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted June 11, 2001 11:54 PM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 636

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

P. I think you are right and I believe I stated a question as to how far to go w/ the late 3rd age material. I think a case could be made for Cirion and Eorl as it is the only tale from the that point of the 3rd age and it reveals quite a bit about Gondor's traditions re: Elendil; and Erebor , only because it takes the Legendarium right up to the Hobbit. But the LotR material is out of place for sure. I will take Hunt for the ring and the Battle for the Fords off soon.
As for splitting Gondolin it was suggested in the FoG thread that as there is such a large chronological gap, we might as well make use of it to soften the radical shift in writing style that would otherwise take place.
It seems at least worth reading through the FoG both ways once [God willing] the drafts are done.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe , and Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod saith " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor...then Eru must come in to conquer him.

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Pengolodh
Haunting Spirit

Member # 97

Rate Member
posted June 15, 2001 07:26 AM
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Haunting Spirit
Posts: 53

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil

I suppose a case can be made for Cirion and Eorl because of the Tradition of Isildur and such that is in it, but why have this in anyway? Would it not be to extensive? Same goes for an epilogue to the LoTR.

I could imagine the Palantiri essay being included simply because the Palantiri have their origin in the ages even before the First. The Istari essay on the other hand....

I guess those sort of decisions are more easily made of we could establish how large the second and Third Age "Appendices" should be. The Istari essay is a great essay, no doubt, but my problem is with its relevance. If we're going for a "be as informative and comprehensive as we can" project, then yes,undoubtedly they should be in. Not critiscizing, just suggesting. The info about the Wizards would still be available for readers in Unfinished Tales . The Istaru and their reason for being in M-e are already mentioned in " of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" I believe.

On another but related note, why separate chapters for "the Siege of Angband", "the building of Gondolin" and "of the Dwarves"?

Is there perhaps a thread on why these chapters have been added? Or are we literally copying from WotJ, ~the Building of Gondolin~ etc. Especially a separate chapter about the Siege of Angband sounds trange to me.

Cheers

Ps, would it be a suitable idea to have all three Tales of Years following each other up, with nothing in between? It would provide a very clear overview of the events? There is nothing wrong with having them separate, but this seems a litlle clearer. Just something I personally would have preferred. An overview of all ages at once.

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

Edited by: Pengolodh at: 6/15/01 9:06:22 am

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Posts: 64 | From: | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted June 16, 2001 09:24 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 646

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

P asked : Is there perhaps a thread on why these chapters have been added? Or are we literally copying from WotJ.

L: yes I took the chapter titles and placement largely out of X and XI, as these represent JRRT's last efforts. While I am like many others used to the QS77-o1 arrangement , I see no reason to stick to it when the author had a later conception, or practicality suggests something else, as in the case of seperating Tuor's coming and the FoG due to serious stylistic [and qualitative discrepancies], I think much of the updated BoLT material is good enough to use ,but looks more awkward when placed in direct continuation w/ the UTTuor ,which[along w/ everything from that 50's era] I think has some of his most polished prose.

Well I am a little ticked EZ board has once again consumed labouriously produced material which i forgot to save - namely the first post of this thread the introduction! grrrrrr. Did anyone happen to copy it?

In general though I think a meticulous going over of th my [not THE ] outline might be better saved for a post FoG period. It is only my opinion based on the idea's I ahve come up w/ and the idea's I liked here on the board. A couple other q's are best answered by notice of the question marks associated w/ a given entry. This means it is in doubt. the entire late third age section does I believe have a comment preceding it to that effect. Well I have to go and see if by chance I did save all of that FAQ/intro and thread material.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Pengolodh
Haunting Spirit

Member # 97

Rate Member
posted June 28, 2001 08:05 AM
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Haunting Spirit
Posts: 64

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Lindil, I don't usually correct spelling or omittions of little relevance but I think you may want to change " but has indicated that he will (NOT) change any more than the Sil 2001, in your first post. It might be a bit confusing and if he in fact was, well, we could cooperate then (he said arrogantly
"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"

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Posts: 64 | From: | Registered: Apr 2001

Telchar
Stonehearted Dwarf Smith

Member # 18

Member Rated:

posted June 29, 2001 07:22 AM
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Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 515

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

GREAT OUTLINE!

Damnit - I want in!!! - Well as I've told you earlier lindil my spare time available for this project is limited - but I hope very much to get more time on my hands when I've moved and gotten my DSL line up! In the meantime I would, if possible, love to survey what you guys are doing in the "Translation for the Elvish-forum" - for now on a D/E-level - later maybe more... so...?
Ohh BtW my bookshop just called me today to say that XII that I had ordered home had arrived ...

Telchar

Anar kaluva tielyanna!

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Posts: 1723 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted July 02, 2001 01:34 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 666

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Telchar you are on

Participate as you can. I will email w/ the "council member packet" please reply to let me know if you receive it.
applicable to all new members.

Also - would any of the current members be willing to do the membership processing/secretarial work of sending out the 'packets'?

My machine is very slow and emailing [believe it or not] eat's seriously into what time I have for this. thanks for considering it.

-lindil
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Telchar
Stonehearted Dwarf Smith

Member # 18

Member Rated:

posted July 05, 2001 03:01 AM
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Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 593

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Proj

Hi Lindil
Was I to recieve something by mail??? At least I haven't yet! just so you know if you have tried to mail me...

T

Anar kaluva tielyanna!

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Posts: 1723 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Apr 2001

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted July 07, 2001 01:25 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 669

Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Project

HTML Comments are not allowed
Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion boardOsanwe, and Gilthalion's Tar Ost-in-Eruhir. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter

Member # 111

posted July 27, 2001 08:17 AM
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Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1397

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

D for me so far as well, if you please
GeorgeLashkhi

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Posts: 2181 | From: Tbilisi, Georgia | Registered: Sep 2000

Eldar14
Wight

Member # 9

posted August 22, 2001 10:33 PM
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Wight
Posts: 120

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

Lindil,
I really want to join in on this project, but I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to help very often, starting a new school year and all. Probably only about once a week. But of course, before I officially request to join in, I'm gonna have to read all the posts in this section of the forum. Hopefully it won't take me too long

Eldar glances at the number of posts in this section

ack! this is gonna take forever!!

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Posts: 237 | From: Middle Earth | Registered: Jun 2001

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted August 23, 2001 11:58 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 693

Re: Introduction to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Pro

welcome eldar 14!
once a week would be alot more than I have been around in the last month!
my sincerest apologies to all for a severe breach of etiquette.
I have hardly turned my computer lately due to domestic chaos of several and sundry types. i hope to pop in a few times a week minimum till things regularize for me.

H-I I will send any missing password to you if you do not already have it.again apologies for neglect.

can anyone who has joined or considers themselves actively involved [and whose name does not already appear in the intro thread] and wishes to be listed in the members section of the intro please pipe up here,so I can get you on.

Osanwe,
Tar Ost-in-Eruhir.
'In the begining was the Word. And the Word was with God.And the Word is God'.

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

Ulmo
Haunting Spirit

Member # 933

Rate Member
posted January 01, 2002 09:32 AM
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Wow, this is a very interesting project! You guys definitely know your stuff. I would like to provide input, but I think I better finish reading UT and HoME first.
When you guys are finished, you should definitely try to get this published. Someone needs to shoot Christopher an e-mail about this.

Keep up the good work guys!

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ulmo ]

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Lord of the seas and one of the greatest of the Valar; in the dark days of the First Age, he kept watch on Elves and Men while the others of his order remained in Valinor. He is famed for bringing Tuor to Gondolin, and so ultimately bringing about the downfall of Morgoth in the War of Wrath.

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Posts: 75 | From: Valinor | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged

Variag of Khand
Newly Deceased

Member # 973

Rate Member
posted January 22, 2002 11:48 AM
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Lindil et.al. I think this is a worthy project and all the best with it. The best way I can help you is give you some pointers on running projects generally. Most projects run on the energy and enthusiasm of the participants, and fall over because of lack of organisation. At the very least, a bit of clarity at the outset will save time later.
I'd advise you to draw up a 'Terms of Reference' for the project. This should be a brief statement (such as would fit on 2 sides of A4 paper, font size 10 or 12!) which sets out a number of key things about the project, in a way that is clear and unambiguous for all that are involved, especially as, on a long, collective effort inevitably people will come and go.

What should it include?

1. Goals - the overall vision of what you are doing and why.
2. Objectives - what you specifically aim to achieve. How will you know you have finished, is a good question to ask here.
3. Scope - by which is meant rules for determining what you do and do not do. E.G. you could exclude expansion of 2nd and 3rd age narrative.
4. Approach - you should think about what the key steps you are going to take and in what order
5. Risks and issues - ask yourself what problems you think you face, and what you can do about them.
6. Assumptions. If you are making any, note them, and try to validate them.
7. Roles and responsibilities. Very important. Try to understand (1) how decisions will be taken, and (2) who is responsible for keeping things on track.

It might seem a pain to do this but EVERY project manager worth his salt will tell you the same. Trust me, it will be worth it. From the posts I've read you do know most of this anyway. But writing it down so you can refer to it will serve you well. PS just because you've written it down doesn't mean you can't change it if needed!

I hope that's helpful and good luck!

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Posts: 6 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged

Mithadan
Spirit of Mist

Member # 4

posted January 24, 2002 08:55 PM
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I'm in.
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"And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them..."

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Posts: 1936 | From: Tol Eressea | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted January 25, 2002 01:31 AM
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Variag- much thanks for your input, we are honored as you seem to have registered to put your above first post up, hopefully you will continue to check in and monitor our efforts and give us your thoughts.
Your outline is very succinct and may well prove a cornerstone in our next attempt to organize our project.
I am not sure if you have seen our 'principles ' thread this has our closest thing to a mission statement.
we, the active members of the group, are in agreement on most things re: deciding canon, it is the literary and aesthetic aspect which we have not yet decided how to approach, but we have recently been discussing the need to review our princioples in order to deal w/ the Balrog and dragon issues before us in the fall of Gondolin.
again thanks.
Mithadan - a pleasure as always.

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Thingol
Shade of Carn Dûm

Member # 1071

Rate Member
posted February 01, 2002 05:56 PM
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I am curious to know once the council has voted on a topic if the general public could find out what the final outcome is? I wouldn't want to see who voted which way, merely the final outcome itself. I am very curious about the number of Balrogs you will include or not include as well as several other topics. However, I totaly understand if you wish this to remain private.
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Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

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Posts: 294 | From: Long Island, New York | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted February 03, 2002 07:51 AM
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Soo far Thingol, [since we have a handful of participants] all has been done by informal consensus. There are no secret polls to show. When this does occur, your idea is a good one and I will do my best to remember to post any TftE poll results in this forum also. As for now in the Balrog disc. and in FoG - a project you are seeing all.
-lindil

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Why Emus
Newly Deceased

Member # 1422

posted February 06, 2002 12:06 AM
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Count me in as a general observer, for now.
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Posts: 5 | From: Berkeley, CA, USA | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged

Warlord_of_Blood
Newly Deceased

Member # 2285

Rate Member
posted April 05, 2002 02:30 PM
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I would seriously like to help you in this endeavor. I am a tolkien fanatic and would be pleased If I could be of service. Mhoram can back me up on that
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Posts: 10 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

Mhoram
Dead and Loving It

Member # 208

Member Rated:

posted April 05, 2002 02:58 PM
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I'm afraid the project seems to be at a standstill, just go through the threads and offer whatever you can and make new threads as needed. One day the excitement will come back around here and your contributions will be taken into account. That's what i've been doing.
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\m/ Lyrics...wasted time between guitar solos! \m/

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Posts: 426 | From: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight

Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted April 06, 2002 02:13 PM
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Well, Lindil (sort of our nominal leader) has been away for a little bit, so yes, it's been slow lately. I'm sure as soon as he's back things will pick up. We've more or less concluded work on the Fall of Gondolin, and the next step will be to actually take all the emendations and create a single text. I don't doubt that new problems will arise in that process.
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Posts: 236 | From: | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Tirinvo
Wight

Member # 2280

Member Rated:

posted April 09, 2002 12:01 PM
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I have told Lindil i wanted to help, and i have tried on the A level, but i am afraid that i could not revise very good because i don't want to change something important!
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Hlar i engwi enyë quet
Utuvien melmë hendiryasse
Anquildëa alcareryassë

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Posts: 116 | From: Eregion | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted June 24, 2002 03:28 AM
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For the newer folks and visitors I am upping the thread.
[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Valedain
Pile O'Bones

Member # 3538

Rate Member
posted July 01, 2002 03:26 PM
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I'd like to participate as a C or D class flunkie. I haven't done all the requisite reading -- only Silm, UT, and HoMe 1-3 so far -- but I should be able to handle some general editing chores. It'll give me a Tolkien fix when I'm not working on my own extremely slow Silm-related project.
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Kaiser Valarauka Valedain
Intern of the White Hand,
Dunlend Development Agency

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Posts: 13 | From: | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged

Maédhros
Wight

Member # 3182

Rate Member
posted July 05, 2002 03:46 PM
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Wow, I'm way impressed at what you have been doing, and i would like to help. I really love the Silmarillion, and I have just finished reading Morgoth's Ring. I will purchase the War of the Jewels soon.
If I may be so bold, i would like to participate as a C Member.
Amazing work, I'm truly impressed.
Please let me know If i can help.
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.

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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Amanaduial the archer
Ghost Prince of Cardolan

Member # 1907

Member Rated:

posted July 05, 2002 03:55 PM
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Woah! This looks amazing! Am I allowed to join? Im also kinda a tolkien fanatic as well, although i may not be alot on some people. Please can I join? Probably section c?
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Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
-*Äм@ήǻðµΐαł*

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Posts: 748 | From: the depths of a troubled mind | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight

Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted July 07, 2002 02:38 PM
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Valedain, Maedhros, and Amanaduial: you're all, of course, welcome to join in. Don't worry if you haven't read all the HoMe stuff yet.
Our current status is that we're nearly finished with a revised version of the Fall of Gondolin, incorporating much of the material in the Book of Lost Tales version. Most of the discussion relating to this project is found in the thread 'A Project: Revising the Fall of Gondolin'. There are a few matters still to be decided for the Fall of Gondolin, two of which have their own spin-off threads, 'Mechanical Monsters' and 'The 7 Names of Gondolin'. We'd be most appreciative for any insights, comments, or discussion on either of these threads.

Aside from that, we have the task of actually posting the revised narrative, incorporating the various corrections we've made (there should be a recent thread where I catalogued the locations of these various corrections). The narrative itself is right now being posted in the private forum; if you want access to that, all you have to do is e-mail lindil and tell him that you'd like to be a member, and he'll send you the password.

Please don't be daunted by the length of some of the discussions you'll find here! It's really not necessary in most cases to read the entire thread; you can just skim most of them and pick up the main points.

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Posts: 236 | From: | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted July 08, 2002 06:22 PM
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Greetings to Amanaduial, maedhros and Valedain. As Aiwendil, the main project worker has succinctly said the main info as to our current phase is listed in the aforementioned threads. Do not be so concerned over the exact natureof involvement. just read up, follow the discussions [ they come in decided bursts] and then chime in as appropriate. [ Feel like you have nothing to add? hey encouragement is always welcome - and needed in this basement barrow !]
I will going aweay for a couple of weeks at the end of June and will prob have no access to a pc. so it would be great to get a solid beging to the transition down as it seems as impossible to transfer the old sections re: the transition w/ out a crazy amount of re-editing [ I tried several times anmd they all failed.] I suppose we must go ahead and start the thread from scratch. ahhhhhhh........
I hope to hop on it tonight.

aagin welcome to the project and do email for the passwords.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Valedain
Pile O'Bones

Member # 3538

Rate Member
posted July 09, 2002 01:16 PM
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quote:
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I will going aweay for a couple of weeks at the end of June.
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I am afraid you've missed your vacation, Lindil.

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Kaiser Valarauka Valedain
Intern of the White Hand,
Dunlend Development Agency

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Posts: 13 | From: | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted July 10, 2002 11:58 AM
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rrggghhh I hate that , I will have to taje another one. july 31-aug 12.
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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.The Translations from The Elvish /New Silmarillion Project

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Posts: 990 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

Maédhros
Wight

Member # 3182

Rate Member
posted July 27, 2002 10:41 AM
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Hello, I have recently joined the project, yet i went to a vacation and now I´m lost. Can someone tell me what is it that you´re working so that I can help with that.
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.

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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight

Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted July 28, 2002 07:11 PM
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Well, things have been sort of slow here in the past few weeks. I've been typing up a text for the Fall of Gondolin incorporating the approved changes, and I'll post in on the other forum as soon as I'm done.
In the meantime, any comments on the '7 Names of Gondolin' thread or the 'Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin' would be most appreciated.

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Posts: 236 | From: | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Maédhros
Wight

Member # 3182

Rate Member
posted July 28, 2002 08:48 PM
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I'm on it then!
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.

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Posts: 160 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted August 19, 2002 09:34 AM
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For folks interested ion signing up, I have yet to revise the participation categories but essentially they will be this, eliminated.
Just participate as you can and in area's that you have some understanding or time to learn.For instance don't vote on Mechanical dragons [ a vote coming soon btw] if you have not read the thread or pondered it. If you have go for it. That is the basic sort of rule. I hope to update the opening Outline post soon till then - this is the 'official' update. Nd hey if we get more active members we can vote on something like this instead of me just pontificating

-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-from page 2 of same -=-=-==-
Tirned Tinnu
Wight

Member # 4192

Member Rated:

posted August 30, 2002 05:15 AM
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Please add me to your list of FULL responsibilites. I am ready to take on this challenge, and I see that you are quite serious, too.
I post at several boards under many names, but this is the one that seems to have all the rules worked out as I would like them to be!
I shall await a reply, and review all texts in the mean time.

Edited comment* "AUggghhhhh!!!!!! HoME?! Dear Eru, you are cruel! *Sits down and starts reading* "Grumble..."

Next edit: Okay, I give in. You want to sort thru ALL this info?! To do what? This is, IMHO, the work of a lifetime, and the tale of the creation of a land slowly but surely over years and years. I suggest that rather than looking back, you look to later works. Chris must have some of these hanging around. Isn't it possible to find notes on newer revisions? Oh pssttt....note, I withdraw my offer for all duties. Thank you muchly, but I am daunted beyond despair at the prospect of touching Tolkien's work. I would need to learn his secret languages (and not be satisfied until I'd learned them all) in order to even have the fainted idea of the stuff rattling around in his head. Not to mention needing to take German, Medieval English, Welsh, Scandinavian, and possibly Latin, too. Then add on the need to be well rounded in myth, such as Siggurd and Brunhilde, the traditional norse sagas, I'd need to read the Finnish Sagas (which I have started, they are lovely) and prolly a good all around backround on the history of early England might help...See?

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

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'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

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Posts: 170 | From: Patchogue NY | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged

lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

Member Rated:

posted October 09, 2002 01:40 PM
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Please note the new first post.
All degrees of participation have been eliminated. Of course if anyone disagrees w/ this we can vote, but it still seems like to new a group to be bogged down in procedures. Whenever folks are ready we can revisit all of these organizational edicts and do a group rehash. For now I am just doing my best to codify what is already happening.

Please also note, folks who signed up but have yet to participate or ask myself or Aiwendil fo the passwords , i am eliminating your posts, if you still want to participate, feel fre to sign up again and PM us. No malice intended, just trying to clean up and eliminate the non-essentials.

Also to those daunted by the complexity of the undertaking but still wish to participate in some way. As long as you have a working Knowledge of the Silmarillion [ say having read it at least 3 times] then I can help speed you on your way w/ a handy "guide to Silm editing essentials in UT/HoME" ownership of all [ or at least UT and HoME 5 and 10-12] books.
is darn handy but not essential. PM me for details. Please do have read Silm a few times if you wish to participate actively in the Project.

General questions as to what we are doing are fine for anyone who is curious, by 'participation', I mean taking on of tasks and voting.

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]