[Child of the 7th Age]

Saucepan Man,

You raise a question and Gorgwingel refers to this as well:

The one thing which still puzzles me from the quote is the meaing of the words: "The Ring is mine". Does he decide not to destroy the Ring because he already regards it as his own, or does he decide to claim it as his own having decided not to destroy it?

I had honestly never asked myself this before. Just from a reading of Frodo's character and what's happened in the story up till then, I would probably lean towards the view that Frodo already regarded the Ring as his own. Yet there are things that Tolkien mentioned in his earlier drafts of this scene that perhaps suggest the latter to be true. I'll get into that below, since this also pertains to some ideas that Helen raised. Sorry, but this will probably be long and a bit muddling....

See the quotation below from Helen's post which is part of an argument where she questions whether Frodo would have been thinking of the preservation of the Shire and Bilbo when he claimed the Ring (or at least had seriously considered this option at some point on the long road through Mordor).

So-- for preservation of The Shire (and Bilbo)-- I see that he would want those things, yes, but I'm just not convinced he'd buy the Rings' offer to do it. He knew better, and I think his "good hobbit sense" would have told him (as it told Sam) that such things would not be.

Let me again say that this is pure speculation on my part. There is nothing in Tolkien that actually answers the question of why Frodo chose to claim the Ring. However, it is clear from the story that Frodo cared about two things more than any other: the Shire and Bilbo. And it also true that Frodo is the most "Elvish" hobbit I've ever seen, which means he may have some of the good and some of the not-so-good traits that are typical of Elves. Hence, the desire to preserve the past.

This was my reasoning in regard to the whole question of "preservation." Whoever wielded the One Ring would clearly have power over the other lesser Rings. Here, I am thinking of Nenya which obviously exercised some kind of a preserving power in Lórien. The type of preservation exemplified there seemed different than the "stretched out" kind of preservation that a bearer of the One Ring would experience. Certainly, it seemed gentler. And since the bearer of the One Ring could eventually command the others, even though the Elven Rings were presently hidden, he or she would have the ability to weave a web of protection around the Shire, similar to Lórien.

I didn't see Frodo hoping to turn the Shire into Minas Morgul, "neither living or dead". Instead he wanted a kind of Lothlórien, the meaning of which is "blossom-dream-land". Those kind of dreams must have looked pretty attractive to a bent and weary Frodo.

Of course, all his desires would have been an illusion. The One Ring would surely have swept away all goodness, from both Lórien and the Shire, and nothing could have withstood its corruption. But it may have been a believable illusion to Frodo as he contemplated his choices on the trudge through Mordor.

Regarding your comment...."his 'good hobbit sense' would have told him (as it told Sam) that such things would not be."

I'm not so sure....

If you look in Sauron Defeated, there are five outlines and one very early sketch that touch upon the Mount Doom scenes. Of these the sketch and three of the outlines directly deal with Frodo's decision not to destroy the Ring.

First, just to show how certain Tolkien was that no one could throw away the Ring.... When Tolkien first began the book, before "Frodo Baggins" even existed as a separate character, and before the Necromancer was fully replaced with Sauron, the author put forward the idea that the hobbit bearing the Ring (Bingo) could not throw it away. So Frodo was truly doomed even before Tolkien put his pen to the page! (The italics and question mark occur in the original text.)

At end.....When Bingo at last reaches Crack and Fiery Mountain he cannot make himself throw the Ring away.....? He hears Necomancer's voice offering him great Reward --to share power with him, if he will.

At that moment Gollum -- who had seemed to reform and had guided them by secret ways through Mordor --comes up and treacherously tries to take Ring. They wrestle and Gollum takes Ring and falls into the Crack.

In the subsequent drafts, Tolkien elaborated on this story. I am quoting the final draft before the chapter was written, but the earlier ones are identical in meaning on this point.

Frodo now feels full force of the Eye.....? He does not want to enter Chamber of Fire or throw away the Ring. He seems to hear a deep small persuasive voice speaking: offering life and peace -- and finally a share of the Great Power: if he will take Ring intact to the Dark Tower. He rejects this, but stands still -- while thought grows (absurd though it may seem): he will keep it, wield it, and himself have Power alone; be Master of All. After all he is a great hero, Hobbits should become lords of men, and he their Lord, King Frodo, Emperor Frodo. He thought of the great poems that would be made, and mighty songs and saw (as if far away) a great Feast, and himself enthroned and all the kings of the world sitting at his feet, while all the earth blossomed.

So, according to Tolkien, at least in this outline, his "good hobbit sense" was not adequate protection against such dreams! This isn't surprising. In fact, it reminds me of what Gandalf said: that he himself would take the Ring out of a desire to do good that would then be corrupted.

Regarding Saucepan Man's question whether Frodo already had a sense of owning the Ring.

It seems to me, according to this draft, that Frodo did not have a clear sense of ownership of the Ring prior to Sammath Naur. Indeed, in outline 1, this is stated more clearly. Again, the italics are not mine...

Then suddenly a new thought arose--not from outside -- a thought born inside himself: he would keep the Ring himself and be master of all

This earlier draft likewise states that Sauron's offer to share power "actually terrifies him."

None of this, however, made its way into the final book. So did Tolkien reject these ideas?

I'm not so sure....

There were ideas in the earlier drafts that Tolkien clearly rejected by putting comments in the margin. For example, he speculated that Gollum would be reformed and voluntarily jump into the Fire with the Ring. Beside this, JRRT put a great big "No" in the margin. (Interestingly, this is the same idea he later mentions in his Letters.)

There were other ideas in the earlier outlines that Tolkien clearly refuted by offering a different version in the book. For example, except for the very first sketch, the earlier drafts speculate that Sam pushes Gollum into the pit. This would have been a big change from what we finally got in the end. Sam would have been a "hero" in a more conventional sense and the hand of Providence would be less evident. Tolkien clearly rejected this.

But what about this idea of Frodo being tempted? Tolkien nowhere rejects it. He simply doesn't allow us to get inside the hobbit's head in the final scenes. But there are things here that do ring true. (Pardon the pun!) the Letters specifically mention that Frodo wanted to be a "hero" and that this was one reason he suffered. He simply couldn't accept being a mere instrument of Providence. Doesn't this tie back with the scene depicted in the earlier draft? So perhaps this was going on inside Frodo's mind; only we can't see it. And how typical of Frodo to think of himself as a great King not in terms of battles or power, but rather of feasts (how Hobbitish to think of food!), songs, flowers, and poetry.

I am also drawn to the line with Sauron "offering Life and Peace." Again, to me, by definition, that life and peace would have to come to Frodo in the context of a preserved Shire with Bilbo by his side.

Of course, we'll never know. The final scenes are presented by Tolkien in a more cryptic manner. We have less of an idea what's going on. But the more I look at HoMe, the more I think that this whole train of thought may still have been going on inside Frodo's mind (and Tolkien's). But JRRT chose not to share it with the reader.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:18 PM January 17, 2004: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]