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mark12_30 · 01-22-2004, 11:33 AM

davem, your last post I can heartily assent to except the single part that calls Frodo's failure a "moral failure." Tolkien expressly states that the Sammath Naur wasn't a moral failure on Frodo's part any more than being killed by a falling rock. (See the demonic opression/ sanity/ free will argument above.) Other than that, I heartily agree with all you say; I guess I see that Frodo's salvation (from his own sin of posessiveness and pride) was always needed, and not just at the Sammath Naur. It was the World that needed saving at the Sammath Naur, and for that, Frodo himself according to Tolkien was placed in a sacrificial position.

And in that, Essex, what you say (also) is true: although Frodo's freedom, free will, and sanity were (at the Sammath Naur) sacrificed, nevertheless at that moment, the pity and mercy that Frodo had shown to Gollum were used by Providence to save Middle-Earth.

Also, Essex, I believe that the sting, tooth, blade, and long burden drove him west, but also so did his own pride, and longing for the ring that was gone forever. Tolkien indicates that he needed to understand his position in littleness and greatness; that is a pride issue... So it was both sin and injury; his pride and posessiveness, and also his emotional and physical pain.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:56 PM January 22, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

01-22-2004, 11:33 AM	#25
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	davem, your last post I can heartily assent to except the single part that calls Frodo's failure a "moral failure." Tolkien expressly states that the Sammath Naur wasn't a moral failure on Frodo's part any more than being killed by a falling rock. (See the demonic opression/ sanity/ free will argument above.) Other than that, I heartily agree with all you say; I guess I see that Frodo's salvation (from his own sin of posessiveness and pride) was always needed, and not just at the Sammath Naur. It was the World that needed saving at the Sammath Naur, and for that, Frodo himself according to Tolkien was placed in a sacrificial position. And in that, Essex, what you say (also) is true: although Frodo's freedom, free will, and sanity were (at the Sammath Naur) sacrificed, nevertheless at that moment, the pity and mercy that Frodo had shown to Gollum were used by Providence to save Middle-Earth. Also, Essex, I believe that the sting, tooth, blade, and long burden drove him west, but also so did his own pride, and longing for the ring that was gone forever. Tolkien indicates that he needed to understand his position in littleness and greatness; that is a pride issue... So it was both sin and injury; his pride and posessiveness, and also his emotional and physical pain. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:56 PM January 22, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.