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davem · 01-25-2004, 05:33 AM

This is my first posting with my new imac, & I hope everyone feels as excited by that as I do!
Anyway,

I think it does count as a 'moral failure' on Frodo's part at the end, because of the surrender involved on his part, however small it may have been. He has achieved numerous moral victories, all along, & that, perhaps is why his failure at the end is so shocking to us, & so sobering. To be shown that even Frodo would fail, at the last is shocking to us, & should make us think.

As for him almost being too people, so that he can be 'shocked ' at his own alter-ego's failure, this, for me, is too close to the 'evil clone' scenario. Frodo's failure & 'sin' is his own, & is the reason he finds it so difficult to live with himself.

I think this is one area of the story which has never been sufficiently dealt with, There is a betrayal of self, & of personal values, which is in a way worse than betrayal of others, & harder to live with, as it is harder to tell a convincing lie to oneself, & make oneself believe it, And if there is also the knowledge that someone we care about, someone who has suffered & sacrificed for us, has witnessed our failure, that makes it so much the worse. I woulldn't rule outfeelings of shame & embarrassment on Frodo's part, with regards to Sam.

Frodo couldn't live with the idea of himself that he had come to have, a hero, a saviour, & needed to be taught how small he really was. He couldn't do that in the world, & certainly not in the Shire, so he had to go where he could do that, with the Elves he'd come to identify himself so strongly with.

01-25-2004, 05:33 AM	#30
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	This is my first posting with my new imac, & I hope everyone feels as excited by that as I do! Anyway, I think it does count as a 'moral failure' on Frodo's part at the end, because of the surrender involved on his part, however small it may have been. He has achieved numerous moral victories, all along, & that, perhaps is why his failure at the end is so shocking to us, & so sobering. To be shown that even Frodo would fail, at the last is shocking to us, & should make us think. As for him almost being too people, so that he can be 'shocked ' at his own alter-ego's failure, this, for me, is too close to the 'evil clone' scenario. Frodo's failure & 'sin' is his own, & is the reason he finds it so difficult to live with himself. I think this is one area of the story which has never been sufficiently dealt with, There is a betrayal of self, & of personal values, which is in a way worse than betrayal of others, & harder to live with, as it is harder to tell a convincing lie to oneself, & make oneself believe it, And if there is also the knowledge that someone we care about, someone who has suffered & sacrificed for us, has witnessed our failure, that makes it so much the worse. I woulldn't rule outfeelings of shame & embarrassment on Frodo's part, with regards to Sam. Frodo couldn't live with the idea of himself that he had come to have, a hero, a saviour, & needed to be taught how small he really was. He couldn't do that in the world, & certainly not in the Shire, so he had to go where he could do that, with the Elves he'd come to identify himself so strongly with. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."