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jallanite · 06-27-2001, 05:47 PM

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Re: But how did they know about swords?

In The Sillmarillion Fëanor hastens to Alqualondë (alone?) and attempts to gain the Teleri to his cause. They are unmoved and refuse to either give ship or help in building them.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thereupon Fëanor left him, and sat in dark thought beyond the walls of Alqualondë, until his host was assembled. When he judged that his strength was enough, he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force.<hr></blockquote>This is somewhat vague but makes it clear enough that he certainly did not lead all the Noldor, and probably not all his host, and his plan was simply to steal the ships.

More details are in The Book of Lost Tales 1 which in this part is sufficiently in agreement with later acounts to be taken as still valid if one wishes, and is much more detailed. The Noldor take ships and load them with their women and children, and sail to the mouth of the harbour. The Solosimpi (the later Teleri) threaten the Noldor in the ships with bows from on top of the cliff wall where the archway is that the ships must pass through.

The tale now rejoins the Silmarillion account as other Noldor come up:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and sped behind the Solosimpi, until suddenly coming upon them nigh the Haven's gate they slew them bitterly or cast them into the sea; and so perished the Eldar beneath the weapons of their kin, and that was a deed of horror.<hr></blockquote>But then the The Book of Lost Tales ceases to give details at just the point where The Silmarillion tells how the people of Fëanor were driven back and starts to speak more specifically of the deeds of the battle.

In the BoLT version there is no earlier tale of the Noldor particularly forging weapons around this time, for the motif of quarrels between the families of the Noldor has yet to emerge. But probably swords are simply assumed in this account in the words "the weapons of their kin." Later Tolkien may have questioned why the Noldor would have had such in the peace of Valinor, whence the story was devised that they were made by Melkor's counsel against supposed plotting by rival houses.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 6/27/01 7:50:43 pm

06-27-2001, 05:47 PM	#15
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 30</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: But how did they know about swords? In The Sillmarillion Fëanor hastens to Alqualondë (alone?) and attempts to gain the Teleri to his cause. They are unmoved and refuse to either give ship or help in building them.<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Thereupon Fëanor left him, and sat in dark thought beyond the walls of Alqualondë, until his host was assembled. When he judged that his strength was enough, he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force.<hr></blockquote>This is somewhat vague but makes it clear enough that he certainly did not lead all the Noldor, and probably not all his host, and his plan was simply to steal the ships. More details are in The Book of Lost Tales 1* which in this part is sufficiently in agreement with later acounts to be taken as still valid if one wishes, and is much more detailed. The Noldor take ships and load them with their women and children, and sail to the mouth of the harbour. The Solosimpi (the later Teleri) threaten the Noldor in the ships with bows from on top of the cliff wall where the archway is that the ships must pass through. The tale now rejoins the Silmarillion account as other Noldor come up:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> ... and sped behind the Solosimpi, until suddenly coming upon them nigh the Haven's gate they slew them bitterly or cast them into the sea; and so perished the Eldar beneath the weapons of their kin, and that was a deed of horror.<hr></blockquote>But then the The Book of Lost Tales* ceases to give details at just the point where The Silmarillion tells how the people of Fëanor were driven back and starts to speak more specifically of the deeds of the battle. In the BoLT version there is no earlier tale of the Noldor particularly forging weapons around this time, for the motif of quarrels between the families of the Noldor has yet to emerge. But probably swords are simply assumed in this account in the words "the weapons of their kin." Later Tolkien may have questioned why the Noldor would have had such in the peace of Valinor, whence the story was devised that they were made by Melkor's counsel against supposed plotting by rival houses. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 6/27/01 7:50:43 pm