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***Gilthalion*** · 02-06-2001, 07:43 PM

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Re: Denethor, Faramir and Aragorn

I agree that the element of surprise was the chief consideration in waiting to unfurl the banners until the fleet was upon the enemy.

As for the other matters, they are subtle questions.

I do not know if Denethor ever pieced together the connection between Aragorn (knowledge gleaned from Pippin) and memories of a long vanished rival, Thorongil.

Even so, as Gandalf told Pippin, Denethor guessed much.

Was there an opportunity for Denethor and Faramir to discuss Aragorn? (I'm not sure.)

If so, was the matter of the continuation and succession of the Ruling Stewardship discussed?

That would put the final conversation of Denethor and Faramir in a different light.

But I do not believe that Denethor ever wanted Faramir killed, or sought to have him killed by sending him into peril.

I tend to think that it was the Ring that came between them. Denethor had been exposed to the Lord of that Ring through the Palantir. He noted how Faramir looked to Gandalf. He knew something of why Boromir had died. He deduced that Faramir passed up the opportunity that he himself or Boromir would have siezed. Denethor knew much ancient lore, and knew the halfling-rhyme that came to his sons in their dreams.

But I think it was the Ring,
rather than the King.

I think despair had a hard hold of Denethor at this time, and his last possible hope had died.

Nevertheless, his mind was not broken at this point. Rather, he was harsh in his grief and despair, and took it out on Faramir, sending him to battle without even a blessing.

But I think it was the influence of the Ring that sharpened the edge of bitterness in the scene, afflicting the father from afar, as it overthrew the elder son when at hand.

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02-06-2001, 07:43 PM	#3
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 29</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Denethor, Faramir and Aragorn I agree that the element of surprise was the chief consideration in waiting to unfurl the banners until the fleet was upon the enemy. As for the other matters, they are subtle questions. I do not know if Denethor ever pieced together the connection between Aragorn (knowledge gleaned from Pippin) and memories of a long vanished rival, Thorongil. Even so, as Gandalf told Pippin, Denethor guessed much. Was there an opportunity for Denethor and Faramir to discuss Aragorn? (I'm not sure.) If so, was the matter of the continuation and succession of the Ruling Stewardship discussed? That would put the final conversation of Denethor and Faramir in a different light. But I do not believe that Denethor ever wanted Faramir killed, or sought to have him killed by sending him into peril. I tend to think that it was the Ring that came between them. Denethor had been exposed to the Lord of that Ring through the Palantir. He noted how Faramir looked to Gandalf. He knew something of why Boromir had died. He deduced that Faramir passed up the opportunity that he himself or Boromir would have siezed. Denethor knew much ancient lore, and knew the halfling-rhyme that came to his sons in their dreams. But I think it was the Ring, rather than the King. I think despair had a hard hold of Denethor at this time, and his last possible hope had died. Nevertheless, his mind was not broken at this point. Rather, he was harsh in his grief and despair, and took it out on Faramir, sending him to battle without even a blessing. But I think it was the influence of the Ring that sharpened the edge of bitterness in the scene, afflicting the father from afar, as it overthrew the elder son when at hand. <center> *~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~* </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!