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Child of the 7th Age · 06-22-2002, 09:27 PM

I don't think the concept of divine providence could be explicitly limited to the Judaeo-Christian tradition. Islam also has this concept. My brother-in-law is a devout Sufi, a mystical branch of Islam, and he and I have had extended discussions about the interplay of free will and divine providence.

This interplay of free will and divine providence is at least implied in the Lord of the Rings. The most obvious examples.....We certainly know Frodo was free to turn down the Ring quest, and that, in the end, divine providence, vis a vis Gollum and the whole theme of pity and mercy, played an important role.

The balance or interplay between these two concepts is so difficult to sort out, both in Tolkien and real life. I have actually found it helpful, even in real life (!), to symbolize this in terms of the Music of Creation (an idea that has ancient, mythic roots). The Music itself was played at Creation, but, in Tolkien, the role of Man is not totally within the purview of that music. He or she has free will to determine personal behavior and choice and presumably to affect themes within the Music.

But I still find those two ideas difficult to reconcile in my head, at least intellectually. I run into problems when considering the orgins of evil, especially instances of horrendous evil like Morgoth in Tolkien or the Holocaust in the "real" world. I would call both of these evils that mar the actual soul of Arda or Earth. I wonder if Tolkien ever found these two concepts--free will and providence-- pulling in different directions in his story?

Raefindel -- Tolkien said quite strongly in his Letters that a mythlogy should be pre-Christian. That is one of the reasons he did not find the Arthurian legends a satisfactory base of myth for his native country.

He also says in his Letters that these were ages when the main religious act was resistence to incarnate evil, rather than worship of any being. Indeed, the latter had been corrupted in Numenor when Melkor set up Temples in the city for Men to worship him. There had been a mountain in Numenor where Men went to privately and sometimes publicly worship not the Valar, but Eru. But all this was swept away, of course.

As a Catholic, Tolkien was probably uncomfortable with depicting anything that could be taken as worship of the Valar, even though there are moments in the books when the Elves and Hobbits call upon Varda and other figures.

Even so, I have always felt something was missing from the book. It is hard for me to imagine a traditional society such as the Shire with no practice of religion other than "good ethics" and resistence to evil.

The only explicitly religious worship in the book is the scene with Faramir where his men stand in a moment of silence before eating. When Frodo questions this, Faramir explains that they do this to "look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be." LotR, 661 I always found Frodo's response touching. When Faramir asked him "Have you no such custom at meat?", he replied "no" but felt "strangely rustic and untutored." He went on to explain that, as guests, Hobbits bow politely to their hosts and thank them. This is so typical of the best hobbits --a deep concern and politeness for others, and an instinctive searching for more than that--visions and Elves and the light--but no concrete models of religion in their own society.

Towards the end of his life, Tolkien seemed to be pushing out the boundaries on this and questioning whether something more explicit was needed. There are hints of this in osanwe-kenta, one of the essays in Mortgoth's Ring where an Elf and a wise old woman discuss the possibility of Eru coming in to the world to heal it, and some of the notes in The Road Goes Ever On. Lindil, who works on the Silmarillion canon, knows a lot about this later writing and would like to see it incorporated into a revised Silm. I find myself very sympathetic to this, although it is not "canon".

If you want more on this, pull up the osanwe-kenta thread, especially near the end.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

06-22-2002, 09:27 PM	#5
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	I don't think the concept of divine providence could be explicitly limited to the Judaeo-Christian tradition. Islam also has this concept. My brother-in-law is a devout Sufi, a mystical branch of Islam, and he and I have had extended discussions about the interplay of free will and divine providence. This interplay of free will and divine providence is at least implied in the Lord of the Rings. The most obvious examples.....We certainly know Frodo was free to turn down the Ring quest, and that, in the end, divine providence, vis a vis Gollum and the whole theme of pity and mercy, played an important role. The balance or interplay between these two concepts is so difficult to sort out, both in Tolkien and real life. I have actually found it helpful, even in real life (!), to symbolize this in terms of the Music of Creation (an idea that has ancient, mythic roots). The Music itself was played at Creation, but, in Tolkien, the role of Man is not totally within the purview of that music. He or she has free will to determine personal behavior and choice and presumably to affect themes within the Music. But I still find those two ideas difficult to reconcile in my head, at least intellectually. I run into problems when considering the orgins of evil, especially instances of horrendous evil like Morgoth in Tolkien or the Holocaust in the "real" world. I would call both of these evils that mar the actual soul of Arda or Earth. I wonder if Tolkien ever found these two concepts--free will and providence-- pulling in different directions in his story? Raefindel -- Tolkien said quite strongly in his Letters that a mythlogy should be pre-Christian. That is one of the reasons he did not find the Arthurian legends a satisfactory base of myth for his native country. He also says in his Letters that these were ages when the main religious act was resistence to incarnate evil, rather than worship of any being. Indeed, the latter had been corrupted in Numenor when Melkor set up Temples in the city for Men to worship him. There had been a mountain in Numenor where Men went to privately and sometimes publicly worship not the Valar, but Eru. But all this was swept away, of course. As a Catholic, Tolkien was probably uncomfortable with depicting anything that could be taken as worship of the Valar, even though there are moments in the books when the Elves and Hobbits call upon Varda and other figures. Even so, I have always felt something was missing from the book. It is hard for me to imagine a traditional society such as the Shire with no practice of religion other than "good ethics" and resistence to evil. The only explicitly religious worship in the book is the scene with Faramir where his men stand in a moment of silence before eating. When Frodo questions this, Faramir explains that they do this to "look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be." LotR, 661 I always found Frodo's response touching. When Faramir asked him "Have you no such custom at meat?", he replied "no" but felt "strangely rustic and untutored." He went on to explain that, as guests, Hobbits bow politely to their hosts and thank them. This is so typical of the best hobbits --a deep concern and politeness for others, and an instinctive searching for more than that--visions and Elves and the light--but no concrete models of religion in their own society. Towards the end of his life, Tolkien seemed to be pushing out the boundaries on this and questioning whether something more explicit was needed. There are hints of this in osanwe-kenta, one of the essays in Mortgoth's Ring where an Elf and a wise old woman discuss the possibility of Eru coming in to the world to heal it, and some of the notes in The Road Goes Ever On. Lindil, who works on the Silmarillion canon, knows a lot about this later writing and would like to see it incorporated into a revised Silm. I find myself very sympathetic to this, although it is not "canon". If you want more on this, pull up the osanwe-kenta thread, especially near the end. sharon, the 7th age hobbit sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.