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***Gilthalion*** · 02-09-2001, 12:02 PM

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

If, for the purpose of discussion, we make the reasonable assumption that Illuvatar=God, then the Christian debates on the nature of Fate/Omnipotence vs. Free Will come into play.

The theological question: If God is all powerful and foreknows all, then how is Free Will possible?

I have an answer that settles it for me (in my own limited understanding).

Let's head out to the baseball field for a moment...

Babe Ruth steps up to the plate. The unruly Yankees crowd jeers the great player, for he has lately been in a slump. But the Babe promised the dying boy, listening now on the radio, that he would hit a home run especially for him. So as the crowd calls out various insults, the Sultan of Swat points his bat high into the stands over left field. The young pitcher sneers, throws his pitch, and the Babe knocks it right into the stands where he pointed.

Now, the Babe did not know what pitch would next come his way. But having been a pitcher himself, he knew every pitch that could possibly come across that plate and what he would have to do with it to knock it where he wanted.

Similarly (IMHO), God, in order that we would have free will, has limited his own power, but being God, can take whatever we throw at him, and knock it right into the prophetic.

Thus, while not constraining us to behave as automatons, he nevertheless is a player himself, and like Illuvatar, can make the Destiny that is His Will come forth, no matter what Morgoth may sing to the contrary. The songs of Tolkien's creation were powerful themes. The actions of the creatures were variations on those themes.

But the Song was still Illuvatar's.

I would argue that this was Tolkien's understanding. I don't think we are talking about Fate, as such. I think, rather, it is Destiny (If I may make a distinction.). Thus, we are not Fated to decide one thing or another. But we are Destined for a particular end according to our decisions.

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02-09-2001, 12:02 PM	#4
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 31</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth If, for the purpose of discussion, we make the reasonable assumption that Illuvatar=God, then the Christian debates on the nature of Fate/Omnipotence vs. Free Will come into play. The theological question: If God is all powerful and foreknows all, then how is Free Will possible? I have an answer that settles it for me (in my own limited understanding). Let's head out to the baseball field for a moment... Babe Ruth steps up to the plate. The unruly Yankees crowd jeers the great player, for he has lately been in a slump. But the Babe promised the dying boy, listening now on the radio, that he would hit a home run especially for him. So as the crowd calls out various insults, the Sultan of Swat points his bat high into the stands over left field. The young pitcher sneers, throws his pitch, and the Babe knocks it right into the stands where he pointed. Now, the Babe did not know what pitch would next come his way. But having been a pitcher himself, he knew every pitch that could possibly come across that plate and what he would have to do with it to knock it where he wanted. Similarly (IMHO), God, in order that we would have free will, has limited his own power, but being God, can take whatever we throw at him, and knock it right into the prophetic. Thus, while not constraining us to behave as automatons, he nevertheless is a player himself, and like Illuvatar, can make the Destiny that is His Will come forth, no matter what Morgoth may sing to the contrary. The songs of Tolkien's creation were powerful themes. The actions of the creatures were variations on those themes. But the Song was still Illuvatar's. I would argue that this was Tolkien's understanding. I don't think we are talking about Fate, as such. I think, rather, it is Destiny (If I may make a distinction.). Thus, we are not Fated to decide one thing or another. But we are Destined for a particular end according to our decisions. <center> *~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~* </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!