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amyrlis · 02-09-2001, 01:13 PM

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Good post Gilthalion!

Fate: the principle or determining cause or will by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do

Destiny: a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency

(From Merriam-Webster Online)

After reading these definitions I would have to say that Fate plays more of a role than Destiny in Middle Earth. It does not seem that there is a 'predetermined course of events'. As Gilthalion states, beings of ME have their own free will. Iluvatar, or the powers that be, take what is thrown at them and then choose to intervene or not. By intervene, I don't mean how the Valar participated in the War of Wrath, I mean influence. Or, in the case of Earendil (haven't read his story in ages, so please forgive if I'm off here) making it the voyage to the West. The paths were closed to all, but, by the powers that be, Earendil made it. I would say that many characters in Middle Earth were 'fated' for certain greatness or doom. The prime example is Tuor. He was 'led' by Ulmo to his destiny. But I would also say there was much prophecy or forsight regarding characters too. For example, when Feanor and his sons took their oath, they sealed their doom - this was known (forseen?) by all. I don't have any references with me, so I can't provide any hard evidence. Wasn't it 'prophecised' that this oath would drive them and be their demise? Also, Morgoth always had an unreasonable fear of Turgon. Could he 'forsee' that from Turgon would come the last hope of the Elves and his end? Was there something in the Music that he just couldn't remember? Could it be that all the answers were in the Music, but the Ainur just didn't catch it while they were singing? Or was it just an intuition, a hunch? Another example, if my memory serves me, it seems that those who knew Tuor during his life before Gondolin knew that he had a certain 'destiny' that would be fulfilled. Could they have forseen his marraige to Idril and the voyage of Earendil? Also, Tuor had always been moved by the name of Turgon and ever sought information about him. Did he forsee his destiny and how it was mingled with Turgon's? Or did Ulmo 'plant' the name in his thoughts?

I'm kind of rambling now so I'll sign off. Just some random thoughts for a Friday lunch hour!

-amyrlis</p>

02-09-2001, 01:13 PM	#5
amyrlis Wight Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Helcaraxe Posts: 210	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 33</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth Good post Gilthalion! Fate: the principle or determining cause or will by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do Destiny: a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency (From Merriam-Webster Online) After reading these definitions I would have to say that Fate plays more of a role than Destiny in Middle Earth. It does not seem that there is a 'predetermined course of events'. As Gilthalion states, beings of ME have their own free will. Iluvatar, or the powers that be, take what is thrown at them and then choose to intervene or not. By intervene, I don't mean how the Valar participated in the War of Wrath, I mean influence. Or, in the case of Earendil (haven't read his story in ages, so please forgive if I'm off here) making it the voyage to the West. The paths were closed to all, but, by the powers that be, Earendil made it. I would say that many characters in Middle Earth were 'fated' for certain greatness or doom. The prime example is Tuor. He was 'led' by Ulmo to his destiny. But I would also say there was much prophecy or forsight regarding characters too. For example, when Feanor and his sons took their oath, they sealed their doom - this was known (forseen?) by all. I don't have any references with me, so I can't provide any hard evidence. Wasn't it 'prophecised' that this oath would drive them and be their demise? Also, Morgoth always had an unreasonable fear of Turgon. Could he 'forsee' that from Turgon would come the last hope of the Elves and his end? Was there something in the Music that he just couldn't remember? Could it be that all the answers were in the Music, but the Ainur just didn't catch it while they were singing? Or was it just an intuition, a hunch? Another example, if my memory serves me, it seems that those who knew Tuor during his life before Gondolin knew that he had a certain 'destiny' that would be fulfilled. Could they have forseen his marraige to Idril and the voyage of Earendil? Also, Tuor had always been moved by the name of Turgon and ever sought information about him. Did he forsee his destiny and how it was mingled with Turgon's? Or did Ulmo 'plant' the name in his thoughts? I'm kind of rambling now so I'll sign off. Just some random thoughts for a Friday lunch hour! -amyrlis</p> __________________ "Pull the blinders from my eyes, let me see these endless skies And drown here where I stand in the beauty of the land."