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***Gilthalion*** · 02-11-2001, 03:23 PM

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Regarding Zoe's side-note:

I'm not sure we're really talking about different things.

God (Eru/Illuvatar in the Silmarillion) in Eternity certainly is separate from Creation, which exists in Time.

I recall that the ancient Hebrew concept for Eternity is "all of time at once." This certainly is a difficult concept to grasp. Of course, we really can't. But it is at the heart of the Free Will vs. Omnipotence argument. By the act of Creation in Time, God has created something other than Himself, which by definition imposes a limit (that is: Something other than God).

The miraculous/magical occurs when power is exerted to overturn the course of Time and the order of Creation. The fact that God does not impose his will, but rather works his will through our choices is a self-imposed limit to his power through the act of creating the whole set up. The fact that he can move outside of this self-imposed boundary to effect the miraculous is evidence of the Creator working his will (rather than scrapping Creation and starting over).

Discussions of this nature, matters beyond the mathematical, break down in talks of this sort because words (even Elvish ones I imagine) are too clumsy and rough a set of tools for describing the infinitely sublime.

Nevertheless, we CAN "feel" it, or intuit it when description fails. For example, I had my distinction between FATE and DESTINY precisely backwards, evidently. Yet, I think everyone grasped what I was trying to convey!

This is another of those matters that sets Tolkien's work so far above the rest of the genre, indeed, above all but the loftiest and greatest works of history, perhaps to even rank among them. Tolkien taps into matters such as these, and we understand it and feel that there is something "True" in his work that transcends ordinary fiction.

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

02-11-2001, 03:23 PM	#12
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 32</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth Regarding Zoe's side-note: I'm not sure we're really talking about different things. God (Eru/Illuvatar in the Silmarillion) in Eternity certainly is separate from Creation, which exists in Time. I recall that the ancient Hebrew concept for Eternity is "all of time at once." This certainly is a difficult concept to grasp. Of course, we really can't. But it is at the heart of the Free Will vs. Omnipotence argument. By the act of Creation in Time, God has created something other than Himself, which by definition imposes a limit (that is: Something other than God). The miraculous/magical occurs when power is exerted to overturn the course of Time and the order of Creation. The fact that God does not impose his will, but rather works his will through our choices is a self-imposed limit to his power through the act of creating the whole set up. The fact that he can move outside of this self-imposed boundary to effect the miraculous is evidence of the Creator working his will (rather than scrapping Creation and starting over). Discussions of this nature, matters beyond the mathematical, break down in talks of this sort because words (even Elvish ones I imagine) are too clumsy and rough a set of tools for describing the infinitely sublime. Nevertheless, we CAN "feel" it, or intuit it when description fails. For example, I had my distinction between FATE and DESTINY precisely backwards, evidently. Yet, I think everyone grasped what I was trying to convey! This is another of those matters that sets Tolkien's work so far above the rest of the genre, indeed, above all but the loftiest and greatest works of history, perhaps to even rank among them. Tolkien taps into matters such as these, and we understand it and feel that there is something "True" in his work that transcends ordinary fiction. <center> *~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~* </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!