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doug*platypus · 12-31-2002, 02:57 AM

Goodness me, it's dusty inside this thread! Finally something as confusing as my wondering whether this forum actually exists in four dimensions, or whether I've somehow stepped out of reality, or if reality needs to be redefined or if anyone can explain... ah...

Oh, yeah, I think the Bilbo/Gandalf analogy is excellent. Interesting, isn't it that Bilbo is drawn into the Fate of the Ring almost as the anti-Gollum. The hobbit-like Gollum becomes embroiled in the affairs of the "great", and soon after Bilbo does, in a way redeeming his kind, or possibly assisting the end result of Smeagol's life, the destruction of the Ring. The quote from Silmarillion P22 lends us to believe that Men, and hobbits by association or assumption, are exempt from Fate.

The purpose of Eru is not made clear even to the Valar, not even completely to Mandos. In my opinion, this is the condition that makes the co-existence of Fate and Free Will possible. Where someone, unexpected by the Valar, acts outside of Fate and are seen to have Free Will, I still think that they are accomplishing the purpose of Iluvatar. Bilbo was completely free in his decision to follow the Dwarves. He is never said to have been influenced by a divine power. But if you believe that he was created by Eru, then surely he has been made in such a mould that he will be likely to do as he did and join the adventure, without being influenced by outside forces.

Several times in the Silmarillion, the gods such as Ulmo will put thoughts into the heads of the Elves or the Atani, giving them words to speak or actions to follow. It is not this way with Bilbo. I think that he is exempt from Fate, but that his Free Will has been given to him by Iluvatar. He accomplishes the purpose of Iluvatar on his own, without the power of suggestion. So he is above the control of the Valar, but still a part of the Theme of Iluvatar. Given the nature of the Themes in the Ainulindale, which ordained events up until the end of time, I think it would be wrong to say that nothing happened without Iluvatar's foreknowledge of it. He did not make Bilbo do what he did, but was aware that it would happen.

12-31-2002, 02:57 AM	#10
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Goodness me, it's dusty inside this thread! Finally something as confusing as my wondering whether this forum actually exists in four dimensions, or whether I've somehow stepped out of reality, or if reality needs to be redefined or if anyone can explain... ah... Oh, yeah, I think the Bilbo/Gandalf analogy is excellent. Interesting, isn't it that Bilbo is drawn into the Fate of the Ring almost as the anti-Gollum. The hobbit-like Gollum becomes embroiled in the affairs of the "great", and soon after Bilbo does, in a way redeeming his kind, or possibly assisting the end result of Smeagol's life, the destruction of the Ring. The quote from Silmarillion P22 lends us to believe that Men, and hobbits by association or assumption, are exempt from Fate. The purpose of Eru is not made clear even to the Valar, not even completely to Mandos. In my opinion, this is the condition that makes the co-existence of Fate and Free Will possible. Where someone, unexpected by the Valar, acts outside of Fate and are seen to have Free Will, I still think that they are accomplishing the purpose of Iluvatar. Bilbo was completely free in his decision to follow the Dwarves. He is never said to have been influenced by a divine power. But if you believe that he was created by Eru, then surely he has been made in such a mould that he will be likely to do as he did and join the adventure, without being influenced by outside forces. Several times in the Silmarillion, the gods such as Ulmo will put thoughts into the heads of the Elves or the Atani, giving them words to speak or actions to follow. It is not this way with Bilbo. I think that he is exempt from Fate, but that his Free Will has been given to him by Iluvatar. He accomplishes the purpose of Iluvatar on his own, without the power of suggestion. So he is above the control of the Valar, but still a part of the Theme of Iluvatar. Given the nature of the Themes in the Ainulindale, which ordained events up until the end of time, I think it would be wrong to say that nothing happened without Iluvatar's foreknowledge of it. He did not make Bilbo do what he did, but was aware that it would happen. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.