[obloquy]

Maedhros posted this in reply to my topic on another forum, and I hope he doesn't mind me reproducing it here:
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Very interesting obloquy, I had already read it in the bd, but unfortunately had not the time to post in it.

It can also provide an explanation for difficult revisions, such as the ‘3 or at most 7’ Balrog note from AAm, and reconcile such revisions with the older texts.

I still don't see how could you reconcile the note From the Annals of Aman with other older text, like the Fall of Gondolin.
If Morgoth had a hosts of Balrogs, with the "same power", how is it that a Balrog could be easily defeated by an Elf.
From The Fall of Gondolin:

and by reason of the great doughtiness of those two lords they came even unto the Balrogs. Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three, for the brightness of his sword cleft the iron of them and did hurt to their fire, and they writhed; yet of the leap of that axe Dramborleg that was swung by the hand of Tuor were they still more afraid, for it sang like the rush of eagle's wings in the air and took death as it fell, and

An overall excellent information, oblo.
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And then also this:
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From the Published Silmarillion: Chapter 1

But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of Aman, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the sea. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls

Oblo, would you say that those spirits are maiar too, or something else.
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My replies:

I still don't see how could you reconcile the note From the Annals of Aman with other older text, like the Fall of Gondolin.

I didn't mean all older texts. BoLT's 'Fall of Gondolin' is beyond reconciliation short of a full-on editing project like the one underway at the Downs.

If Morgoth had a hosts of Balrogs, with the "same power", how is it that a Balrog could be easily defeated by an Elf.

Simply put, Morgoth didn't have hosts of Balrogs. The latest concepts appear to be that 'no more than 3 or at most 7 ever existed,' and Tolkien edited the AAm account to say 'his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithful to him,' rather than the original 'host of Balrogs.' But when he made this correction on the numbers of Balrogs present at the Battle of the Powers, Tolkien still allowed them all to be slain by Manwë:

...they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.

What my ideas above are intended to explain is how the Balrogs could be annihilated, leaving Melkor all alone, and still show up again at later battles, such as the siege of Gondolin -- at which time, despite the BoLT account's obsolescence, Ecthelion did slay Gothmog, and Glorfindel did duel with another nameless Balrog. Keep in mind that Ecthelion and Glorfindel were no ordinary elves, and their respective victories still cost them their lives. As for the other Balrogs that the elves were slaying several of at a time in BoLT's 'Fall of Gondolin', think of them instead as trolls, orcs, or maybe even the lesser Maiar who took the form of great orc chieftains, per Myths Transformed.

I've seen people declare that we should ignore the AAm '3 or 7' note based on the claim that reducing the number of Balrogs to 3 is clearly impossible, and thus the entire note is evidence of Tolkien's elderly mind slipping into dotage. This is entirely baseless. This revision is post-LotR, and represents a major change in Tolkien's ideas of the potency of Balrogs. At their LotR level of might, multitudes of these beings would have tipped the scales in Morgoth's favor far too much. The Professor was clearly planning a drastic reduction of their numbers, and since at the time of this note's being written, none of the Silmarillion texts had been published, I believe that it should be accepted as an implemented change, evidenced by the emendation from 'host' to 'his Balrogs.' In addition, if Tolkien was planning to implement this change, he would have had to emend nearly all of his texts in which Balrogs make an appearance whatever the number he finally decided on happened to be; therefore reducing the total to 3 was just as plausible as going with 7. There really need only be the three: Gothmog, Durin's Bane, and Glorfindel's Bane, for only these three have a concrete canonicity, existing in authentic antemortem publication by J.R.R. Tolkien himself. The other nameless 'hosts' could be easily edited out, and probably would have been.

Oblo, would you say that those spirits [Eagles] are maiar too, or something else.

Tolkien himself seems unsure. From Myths Transformed:

Huan and Sorontar [Quenya for Thorondor] could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwë. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar.

What's the difficulty with Gwaihir and Landroval being descendants of Thorondor? As far as I can surmise, it must be something to do with the beast-form of the Eagles. Is it possible for two Maiar to conceive children together? Can Maiar beget offspring without one true Incarnate involved? The idea is unprecedented -- or at least unattested. If not, could -- or would -- a Maia in eagle form mate with a true eagle? Even if it was possible, wouldn't it likely violate some major axan? Then, if it was done, would the sentient spirit of the Maia be able to pass that sentience on to progeny that was produced by two beast hröar?

In any case, in the same essay, after some discussion of orc origins/nature, he changes his mind:

In summary: I think it must be assumed that [orcs] 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fëa...talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots), in The Lord of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.... The same sort of thing may be said of Húan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fëar.

So it looks like the answer is, No, the Eagles were not Maiar (or originally any kind of ëalar), though Tolkien did consider it. What is disturbing, however, is the adjustment of Húan's nature. I think this change might be taken less seriously than that of the Eagles, since The Professor provides no reason for it, whereas he had evidently run into a problem with the Eagles' nature.

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]