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**lindil** · 01-24-2001, 12:11 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">linidl
Posts: 325</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
rivendell

Tar -Elenion:"From the descriptions given of Imladris and its environs (heavily
forested, in a deeply cut valley with steep walls and swift rivers) it would
seem a easy area to defend. On should also consider that Elrond when
besieged there after the ruin of Eregion, had not only the survivors of
Eregion who fled to him, but also had an Army at his command
(Gil-galad had sent Elrond with an army from Lindon to relieve Eregion)."

the vision I have of rivendell is based on JRRT's pictures which I was looking at a week ago [so I could be off]
the valley / mountain walls were by no means to steep tp get an army down. and as to the heavily forested ,if I were sauron's commander, I would during summer be thinking of Fire to burn and smoke them out.

Now the earlier suggestion that the force was there to contain not defeat, makes the most sense-in terms of Rivendell being able to hold out for a couple of years , but the words seige to my mind indicate something like the seige's of Minas Tirith and Barad Dur and this is what I find hard to imagine.

Tar-Elenion "Lindil: You state that Elrond needed Vilya in order to bring about the flood.
What is your basis for this statement."

An assumption. I may have underestimated Elronds abilities [ in the realm of power weilding " his might is in wisdom it is said ,not strength of arms" is I believe a description given of Elrond though I can't place it at the moment] ,because we are never shown or even told of any , other than the single flooding incedent [which Gandalf aided].
I am basing it [loosely] on the inability to recall Elves using their innate power to control nature as Sauron [storms ] and other Maia [Osse] are known to do. {an exception is Galdriel's[a ring weilder] fog in Cirion and Eorl}.
_______________________
Tar-Elenion: " Qouthe Lindil: I don't think Elrond's powers would lie in that direction . Even Galadriel
who was a beloved pupil and in-law to Melian...

Galadriel an in-law and pupil, yes. Elrond was however a direct
descendent of Melian the Maia.."

Lindil: 1/16th or something blended [read weakened, in terms of power] w/ the edain forefathers
-----------------------------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil (con't):
...could not keep Orcs [ or Gollum] out of Lothlorien , her enchantment
there was largely the ring's power to slow time down to a trickle.

Tar-Elenion " This was of course a power of all the Three. None of them were
intended to do anything with Orcs and they were not intended as
weapons of war. "

I was reffering to the fact that Galadriel was seemingly unable to construct a defensive Girdle around Lorien as had Melian around Doriath, even though she had presumably learned all she could/would teach.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil:
I have always assumed [rings aside -which they were at that point] that
Galadriel was far more powerful tham Elrond . She lived in valinor and
recv'd tutelage from the Valar and Maia [esp. Melian in Doriath] was
thousands of years older.
------------------------------------------------------------

Tar-Elenion " Elrond was a direct descendent of Melian the Maia and Luthien. He was
part Maia himself. When writing about what could have happened if
various individuals took the One Ring, JRRT says that Galadriel
conceived of herself as capable of overthrowing Sauron if she had the
One. He then says that if she were capable of this "so also were the
other gaurdians of the Three, especially Elrond." Note the "especially
Elrond". Not "even Elrond", but "especially Elrond".
Lindil: I am not sure wherethe above comes from HoME or Letters? I am unfamiliar w/ it. It would change my view of Elrond a bit though.
-----------------------------------------------
Gwaihir,
JRRT does not say that Galadriel was more powerful than Elrond or that
her might was second only to Feanor. He says that she was the
greatest of the Noldor save Feanor maybe though wiser than him in
one place and in another similar statement that she was great like
Feanor though her gifts differed. This is different than 'might'.
Lindil: I think greatness , for JRRT interms of people of the same race and House is in most resects synonomous w/ Power/Might.

Lindil

Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

01-24-2001, 12:11 AM	#9
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">linidl Posts: 325</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> rivendell Tar -Elenion:"From the descriptions given of Imladris and its environs (heavily forested, in a deeply cut valley with steep walls and swift rivers) it would seem a easy area to defend. On should also consider that Elrond when besieged there after the ruin of Eregion, had not only the survivors of Eregion who fled to him, but also had an Army at his command (Gil-galad had sent Elrond with an army from Lindon to relieve Eregion)." the vision I have of rivendell is based on JRRT's pictures which I was looking at a week ago [so I could be off] the valley / mountain walls were by no means to steep tp get an army down. and as to the heavily forested ,if I were sauron's commander, I would during summer be thinking of Fire to burn and smoke them out. Now the earlier suggestion that the force was there to contain not defeat, makes the most sense-in terms of Rivendell being able to hold out for a couple of years , but the words seige to my mind indicate something like the seige's of Minas Tirith and Barad Dur and this is what I find hard to imagine. Tar-Elenion "Lindil: You state that Elrond needed Vilya in order to bring about the flood. What is your basis for this statement." An assumption. I may have underestimated Elronds abilities [ in the realm of power weilding " his might is in wisdom it is said ,not strength of arms" is I believe a description given of Elrond though I can't place it at the moment] ,because we are never shown or even told of any , other than the single flooding incedent [which Gandalf aided]. I am basing it [loosely] on the inability to recall Elves using their innate power to control nature as Sauron [storms ] and other Maia [Osse] are known to do. {an exception is Galdriel's[a ring weilder] fog in Cirion and Eorl}. _______________________ Tar-Elenion: " Qouthe Lindil: I don't think Elrond's powers would lie in that direction . Even Galadriel who was a beloved pupil and in-law to Melian... Galadriel an in-law and pupil, yes. Elrond was however a direct descendent of Melian the Maia.." Lindil: 1/16th or something blended [read weakened, in terms of power] w/ the edain forefathers ----------------------------------------------------------- Quothe Lindil (con't): ...could not keep Orcs [ or Gollum] out of Lothlorien , her enchantment there was largely the ring's power to slow time down to a trickle. Tar-Elenion " This was of course a power of all the Three. None of them were intended to do anything with Orcs and they were not intended as weapons of war. " I was reffering to the fact that Galadriel was seemingly unable to construct a defensive Girdle around Lorien as had Melian around Doriath, even though she had presumably learned all she could/would teach. ----------------------------------------------------------- Quothe Lindil: I have always assumed [rings aside -which they were at that point] that Galadriel was far more powerful tham Elrond . She lived in valinor and recv'd tutelage from the Valar and Maia [esp. Melian in Doriath] was thousands of years older. ------------------------------------------------------------ Tar-Elenion " Elrond was a direct descendent of Melian the Maia and Luthien. He was part Maia himself. When writing about what could have happened if various individuals took the One Ring, JRRT says that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of overthrowing Sauron if she had the One. He then says that if she were capable of this "so also were the other gaurdians of the Three, especially Elrond." Note the "especially Elrond". Not "even Elrond", but "especially Elrond". Lindil: I am not sure wherethe above comes from HoME or Letters? I am unfamiliar w/ it. It would change my view of Elrond a bit though. ----------------------------------------------- Gwaihir, JRRT does not say that Galadriel was more powerful than Elrond or that her might was second only to Feanor. He says that she was the greatest of the Noldor save Feanor maybe though wiser than him in one place and in another similar statement that she was great like Feanor though her gifts differed. This is different than 'might'. Lindil: I think greatness , for JRRT interms of people of the same race and House is in most resects synonomous w/ Power/Might. Lindil Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.