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Kalimac · 01-08-2003, 01:26 AM

Gwaihir, that's fascinating. For Eru not smiting Sauron, I'd always thought of it in rather muddled terms - mostly something along the lines of his not smiting them because he had given them free will and could not take it back in that way simply because they used their will to make choices that were evil.

About the Orcs - it's a good idea, and it's really hard to say without much supporting evidence (especially with the perpetual debate about how Orcs were even created, precisely). The only thing I can think of against it is this; Aule made his Dwarves on his own; he had some vague idea of what Iluvatar wanted his own creations to look like, but obviously he wasn't using very detailed blueprints, considering that the Dwarves came out looking a bit different. He was not so much copying or perverting the design for Elves and Men so much as he was blindly guessing and anticipating it.

On the contrary with Orcs; they are said to be created as a mockery of Elves, the same way the Trolls are mockeries of Ents. Obviously they have many uses to Melkor besides this; he didn't go through the considerable mutilation involved just for fun. But if an Orc is a mockery of an Elf, surely the original prototype for it already has been granted the Secret Fire, which is passed down, albeit in a twisted and corrupted form, to its descendants. Same would go for the Ents. Melkor seems to be more an example of the type of force that's exemplified by a quote - and I can't remember who it's by, I think C.S. Lewis - that the dark powers "cannot make; they can only mock." I don't mean that Iluvatar would slam down and prevent Melkor from making something entirely original - free will and all that - but it just doesn't seem to be Melkor's style. He'd rather dirty someone else's things than work on his own.

Sorry about any mistakes or anything I may have overlooked; I'm still fairly new to the Silmarillion; have had a copy for a while but it's slow reading for me. I'm trying, though [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

EDIT - Oops, was working on this so long it looks like Iargwath got there ahead of me [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Of course, one side-question would be; if Melkor DID create anything on his own, would Iluvatar grant it the Secret Fire? I think he probably would; bound to his own rules.

[ January 08, 2003: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

01-08-2003, 01:26 AM	#3
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Gwaihir, that's fascinating. For Eru not smiting Sauron, I'd always thought of it in rather muddled terms - mostly something along the lines of his not smiting them because he had given them free will and could not take it back in that way simply because they used their will to make choices that were evil. About the Orcs - it's a good idea, and it's really hard to say without much supporting evidence (especially with the perpetual debate about how Orcs were even created, precisely). The only thing I can think of against it is this; Aule made his Dwarves on his own; he had some vague idea of what Iluvatar wanted his own creations to look like, but obviously he wasn't using very detailed blueprints, considering that the Dwarves came out looking a bit different. He was not so much copying or perverting the design for Elves and Men so much as he was blindly guessing and anticipating it. On the contrary with Orcs; they are said to be created as a mockery of Elves, the same way the Trolls are mockeries of Ents. Obviously they have many uses to Melkor besides this; he didn't go through the considerable mutilation involved just for fun. But if an Orc is a mockery of an Elf, surely the original prototype for it already has been granted the Secret Fire, which is passed down, albeit in a twisted and corrupted form, to its descendants. Same would go for the Ents. Melkor seems to be more an example of the type of force that's exemplified by a quote - and I can't remember who it's by, I think C.S. Lewis - that the dark powers "cannot make; they can only mock." I don't mean that Iluvatar would slam down and prevent Melkor from making something entirely original - free will and all that - but it just doesn't seem to be Melkor's style. He'd rather dirty someone else's things than work on his own. Sorry about any mistakes or anything I may have overlooked; I'm still fairly new to the Silmarillion; have had a copy for a while but it's slow reading for me. I'm trying, though [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. EDIT - Oops, was working on this so long it looks like Iargwath got there ahead of me [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Of course, one side-question would be; if Melkor DID create anything on his own, would Iluvatar grant it the Secret Fire? I think he probably would; bound to his own rules. [ January 08, 2003: Message edited by: Kalimac ] __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.