[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Secondly - And when I state this, I am in no way making any kind of judgment call on stories of the Old Testament, or seeking to get into a theological debate.

Thanks for the welcome Birdland. I also am not trying to start any sort of theological debate. I cited David and Goliath purely from the viewpoint of it as a story, apart from any religious beliefs. I apologize if I was unclear with my intent.

I may have quoted you a bit out of context Birdland. I re-read your post with your subsequent amplification your idea. I think we are arguing the same point.

But as I said earlier, Tolkien was the first to blend these two elements

And if I may be allowed the arrogance of quoting myself [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] :

But the idea of putting the two pieces together that way was original, as far as I know.

It looks to me like we are agreeing on the issue of Tolkien’s true genius being in the way he combined his influences. I have to disagree with your points regarding the story of David.

None of these things happen in the first part of the Story of David. It may happen to him later, but that is another story, about a King, not a shepherd boy.

Your argument holds up only because of the way you divide the story of David. If I were to call David’s life from beginning to end one story (which I think it is) then your elements are there.

Gwaihir, you miss quoted me on this one:

someone mentioned that the only way to enjoy a fantasy novel, is if both you and the author have never read Tolkien.

What I did say was that the only way to WRITE truly original fantasy is to not read Tolkien, or anyone else for that matter. I think it is impossible to avoid being influenced in writing by the things you have read.

I have read JRRT’s stuff more times than I can count starting back when I was in the 4th grade. I am a Tolkienite elitist, and proud of it. However, I still enjoy many different fantasy authors, including Robert Jordan (GASP). I know he is one of the favorite whipping boys in this forum and I risk any chance at credibility when I say I can sit down and enjoy his stuff. Do I think he is as good as Tolkien? NO. But do I think his stuff his useful only when you run out of toilet paper? NO.

That (the Robert Jordan bias) is some of the snobbery I was referring to, Gwaihir. I ran across most of that when I was trying to inflict the “Are you writing serious fantasy?” and the “Kalessin’s Rant” threads on myself. What I saw was a lot of Tolkienites bashing most everything else in written form that makes an attempt at the fantasy genre. I’ll stand in the front row of the Tolkienite apologists, but I won’t say no one else can write something worthwhile. I don’t mind when today’s authors show the influence Tolkien has had on them. Poorly disguised plagiarism aside of course *cough cough Dennis L. McKiernan*. Isn’t imitation the most sincere form of flattery? When I see people saying they won’t read anything else but Tolkien and Tolkien’s buddy C.S. Lewis I think about how many good stories they are missing. How about all the incarnations the Arthurian Legends have gone through? Should T.H. White or Mary Stewart have thrown their ideas in the trash because they were, to a large extent, using someone else’s ideas?

I read sci-fi/fantasy for the pure enjoyment of it, not to be elevated to a more lofty state of consciousness or to attain the next level of oneness with the cosmic unity. That’s not to say I don’t, on rare occasion, have my consciousness expanded by some fiction I have read. People were hacking (in the aforementioned threads) on author’s for not having something important to say (I am trying to refrain from direct quotes to avoid the semblance of my own rant here being aimed at particular people). Didn’t JRRT write his stuff to be read for enjoyment? He denies a message, he denies allegorical connection. Hell, he wrote the stuff for HIMSELF initially, to go along with his invented languages. What purpose do you need to write fiction other than having a story to tell? Leave it up to the individual reader to decide what is worth his/her time.

Or, in the end, is it us - the readers - that make it what it is? After all, we're the ones who keep publishers in business.

This is the truest statement I found in all of the Kalessin’s Rant thread. Well, in all of the portion I made myself read. He asked the question and gave the answer right in the initial post. It answers why JRRT is emulated in “formulaic fiction”, it answer’s why Robert Jordan has sold enough books to blanket the earth even though his content (in later work) is sometimes lacking. By extension it answers why The Lord of the Rings (movie) didn’t take home as many Oscars as some people thought it should.

Did the success of LotR give rise to some of the lamest excuses for epic fantasy? What do we have to do to complete the integration of fantasy into the mainstream?

To me those questions could be rephrased into a statement like this: “Please be accepted into the mainstream, but don’t be mainstream.”

The hypocrisy is in wanting fantasy to be mainstream, and then turning around and bashing author’s for using the ideas of the master of their art form. Tolkien’s tools for creating a fantasy story became mainstream. It is hypocritical to bash authors who become popular and make tons of money (read “Robert Jordan”) using Tolkien’s forms. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. But don’t try telling me it has no value.

*wipes brow* That is a long post. Hopefully someone can find something worthwhile in all that verbiage. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]