[Kuruharan]

The erudition of you guys is staggering! No joke.

Thank you! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

...the praise of the praiseworthy is beyond all rewards.

Thingol:

I do not think that Melkor ever put any of his power into the Balorgs.

I'm afraid that I have to say that I find your reasoning for this unconvincing because of your own point.

The Balrogs were Melkor's elite force...

To me this seems like added reason for Melkor to give them extra power, so that they would be more effective. No, you are right that it isn't explicitly stated, but why would Melkor not give the Balrogs some of his powers. He put some of his power into everything else, why leave his elite stormtroopers out?
There is a interesting passage in the section about the Enemies.

...and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts.

It's the treacherous gifts that bears emphasis. I think that this could be a vague reference to Melkor giving some of his power to Balrogs. What I mean is that these guys are spirit. What sort of gift could a spirit be given? An increase in power is what jumps to mind.
Tolkien may not have said anything because he assumed that we would take it for granted that Melkor put some of his power into Balrogs. (Well, actually I suspect it's because he was not expecting people years later to be splitting his sentences apart exploring all the possible hidden meanings behind everything. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

obloquy:

I would be careful not to assume too much based on Morgoth's wording.

Ah, now here's an interesting point. It is rather difficult to get to the truth behind something when those who know the most about a thing are pathological liers by nature. However, Morgoth is spoken of in several places as spending his spirit on his servants so I think that we can take it that some sort of power transfer was taking place.

They never held ranks or commanded troops, and were never spoken of as 'most deadly of Morgoth's servants,' but rather as 'most fell among Morgoth's creatures.'

Okay, a couple of things about this. Glaurung became a "Dragon-king of Nargothrond" after the sack of Nargothrond, commanding orcs in his own right. He led orcs in the sack of Nargothrond as a matter of fact. (Note how he deprived them of their plunder.)
I think that it would be helpful to remember the relative positions of Voronwe and Tuor to the Morgothers. They were enemies. (I know this seems ridiculously obvious, but please follow me for a minute.) Sometimes the word "creatures" can be used as a put-down for somebody you are speaking unfavorably about. I think that may be what is going on here. Voronwe is speaking in disgust about his enemies, and lumping them all together under the insulting word "creatures." I doubt that in his fear and disgust he was being technical as to whether or not Morgoth had 'bred' the bodies of particular servants. He was speaking in shock and horror.

littlemanpoet:

From my reading of all the Glaurung texts in The Silmarillion and many in the UT, it is clear that the Morgoth spirit in Glaurung was more powerful than in most servants of Morgoth.

No arguments on that point here. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Glaurung had a rather independent streak.

Certainly. When Glaurung first appeared it was during the Seige of Angband when he tried to break through the leaguer. This was not the will of Morgoth. The text states that Morgoth was angry at Glaurung for this. I think that somewhere it said that Glaurung delighted in tormenting Turin to gratify his own malice, as opposed to just the malice of his master, like there was some seperation between their spirits.

Did somebody way back in the thread mention Carcharoth? I can't find it. Maybe it was another thread. Anyway, I think a comparison with Carcharoth might be instructive here.

...and put his [Morgoth's] power on him. Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth. There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented terrible and strong.

Here Morgoth put his power on Carcharoth, and a spirit entered into him. I think that something similar may have happened with Dragons. Morgoth found a big lizard, put his power on it, and then a Maiar spirit entered into the Dragon. I think that may be a reasonable explanation of the whole combination of Morgoth's power and independent Maiar spirit thing. Obviously the Balrogs and Ungoliant were the reverse of this process, but I think that the example is still illuminating (if you can call it that considering what we are dealing with. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

When Morgoth fell asleep when Beren and Luthien took the Silmaril, all the hosts of Angband fell asleep with him. It did not say that the hosts of Angband, except Balrogs, fell asleep. All were put to sleep. I think this shows some sort of relationship between the spirits of Balrogs and the spirit of Morgoth.

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]