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Old 03-06-2002, 07:52 PM   #52
Kuruharan
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
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Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Tolkien

The Big East Tourney is on right now so I'll try to be brief (for once).

Okay, I'll buy the renegade Ainu theory for Ungoliant (although if a Ainu wasn't a Valar, I thought that they were by default a Maiar whether they were speifically serving one of the Valar or not).

Quote:
I don't think Morgoth was so generous. He would have feared rebellion and usurpation if they became too powerful.
And
Do you mean to say that Morgoth was sustaining all of his hordes by his own power, like a puppeteer? And that they fell asleep only because Morgoth did?
I do not believe it was a matter of being generous. It was a matter of making his fighters as effective as possible. I believe that the treacherous part was while it enhanced their powers, it also created a dependence on Melkor on the part of those who accepted those gifts.
In answer to the puppeteer part the answer is in a way, yes. I believe that there was some sort of puppeteer relationship between the Dark Lords and their minions. Remember how the orcs of Sauron were running about all distraught when the Ring was destroyed because there was no will there to direct them. I think a comparison with Aule is instructive in this case. Remember how when he created the Dwarves, Iluvatar told him that they were utterly dependent on him for their existance, and if Aule happened to be thinking about something else then the Dwarves would simply stand idle. I think the relationship between Morgoth and his hordes was similar.
And, as powerful as Luthien was, I think it is just a bit much to think that her spell was able to cast all the hosts of Angband into sleep. If she could do that then why didn't the Valar (beings of much greater power) do something similar, and then they would not have missed those Balrogs and Sauron?
Moving down to your second post for just a second since it deals with the same thing, I think that it is a combination of both control and enhancement. For creatures like orcs multiplication and recuperation would be good things to have. For creatures like Balrogs and Dragons thinks like having a power of terror and cunning would be very good things indeed.

Um, which quotes contradicting each other are you referring to? There have been so many quotes used that it's hard to keep track! I would feel rather foolish constructing a big huge explanation only to find out that you had not been talking about that particular quote at all! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Gotta go! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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