The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post

Thingol · 03-09-2002, 10:22 AM

Had Voronwe ever been in the presence of a Balrog or a Dragon? Also Glaurung may have just been able to move faster. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Also at the time of the writing of the Dagor Bragollach Balrogs may not have taken on the same significance that they had in the Lord of the Rings. At one point there were thousands of Balrogs that rode on mechanical dragons. Later the number might have been reduced to as little as 3. I'm not positive of when the Dagor Bragollach was written, but I'm sure Obloquy or someone will correct me if it was written after the Lord of the Rings. Even assuming that the Balrogs had taken on the same significance at this time I see nothing wrong with the Balrogs escorting Glaurung in the battle. Obloquy and I have said that the specialty of Dragons was in fighting against armies, not in fighting duels. It would make sense in a large battle to have a Dragon lead the charge, since they possess the greatest physical destructive power and the strategy of Morgoth in the Dagor Bragollach was to surprise the Noldor with an incredibly destructive first blow. The Noldor were driven back so suddenly that they did not have a chance to regroup. However, in Tolkien's works combat during a battle is different from a duel between two foes of great strength. As for Vala/elf and Maia /elf not being the same you are missing my point. The only distinction between a Vala and a Maia is in the degree of power. The point I am trying to make is that the same relationship exists between a battle between a Vala and an elf and a battle between a Maia and an elf. If the spirit of a Vala has to be overcome in order for it to be slain then the same is true of a Maia. Both the Maia and the Valar are Ainur, they are exactly the same except in their spiritual/magical power. If Morgoth had to be overcome on a spiritual plain then the same is true for Maia. I'm not saying that it is only the spiritual plain that matters, but that in order for one opponent to defeat another then their spirits must be at least on an equal level at the time of the battle. This is why Gandalf tells Aragorn and Boromir that the Balrog is a foe beyond either of them and that swords are of no more use. Men lack the connection to the spiritual/magical world and therefore stand no chance against a foe like a Balrog. On the other hand they seem to do alright against Dragons. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

03-09-2002, 10:22 AM	#61
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Had Voronwe ever been in the presence of a Balrog or a Dragon? Also Glaurung may have just been able to move faster. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Also at the time of the writing of the Dagor Bragollach Balrogs may not have taken on the same significance that they had in the Lord of the Rings. At one point there were thousands of Balrogs that rode on mechanical dragons. Later the number might have been reduced to as little as 3. I'm not positive of when the Dagor Bragollach was written, but I'm sure Obloquy or someone will correct me if it was written after the Lord of the Rings. Even assuming that the Balrogs had taken on the same significance at this time I see nothing wrong with the Balrogs escorting Glaurung in the battle. Obloquy and I have said that the specialty of Dragons was in fighting against armies, not in fighting duels. It would make sense in a large battle to have a Dragon lead the charge, since they possess the greatest physical destructive power and the strategy of Morgoth in the Dagor Bragollach was to surprise the Noldor with an incredibly destructive first blow. The Noldor were driven back so suddenly that they did not have a chance to regroup. However, in Tolkien's works combat during a battle is different from a duel between two foes of great strength. As for Vala/elf and Maia /elf not being the same you are missing my point. The only distinction between a Vala and a Maia is in the degree of power. The point I am trying to make is that the same relationship exists between a battle between a Vala and an elf and a battle between a Maia and an elf. If the spirit of a Vala has to be overcome in order for it to be slain then the same is true of a Maia. Both the Maia and the Valar are Ainur, they are exactly the same except in their spiritual/magical power. If Morgoth had to be overcome on a spiritual plain then the same is true for Maia. I'm not saying that it is only the spiritual plain that matters, but that in order for one opponent to defeat another then their spirits must be at least on an equal level at the time of the battle. This is why Gandalf tells Aragorn and Boromir that the Balrog is a foe beyond either of them and that swords are of no more use. Men lack the connection to the spiritual/magical world and therefore stand no chance against a foe like a Balrog. On the other hand they seem to do alright against Dragons. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.