[obloquy]

For the most part I believe I've made my points on this topic. I have been watching it, and I wish you both luck (Thingol and Kuruharan) in hashing it out.

However, a few minor things, mostly unrelated to the topic heading:

I'm talking about Balrogs (Maiar) vs. Dragons (Maiar).

Are we taking this possible origin of the Dragons' spirits for granted now? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] As I said, I believe Tolkien would have mentioned this significant point somewhere. The only Maiarin servants he mentions are the Balrogs and the Orc chieftains. In addition, since the Dragons' specialty was firebreathing, would it not make sense that they (as Maiar) would be fire spirits? Would they not then simply be Balrogs, regardless of their physical shape or attributes?

Had either one of them [Galadriel; Celeborn] ever been in the presence of a Balrog or a Dragon? Would they know?

Galadriel would know. More than Voronwe, for sure.

I think that in both Tolkien's mythos and in reality (on which his mythos is healthily based), the physical and spiritual dimensions are not so easily teased out. I would go so far as to say that they cannot be so teased out one from the other.

I do agree with you here. I think that these "spiritual" battles would be happening simultaneously with the physical duel, and not as if there are two spiritual beings wrestling on a different plane or in a different dimension, but merely as a clash of wills. It's not Gandalf's superior muscles or fighting technique that allowed him to throw down Durin's Bane. His will had conquered the Balrog's, and only then could he physically defeat him. Saruman was defeated solely by Gandalf's more potent will. Their duel existed entirely on the spiritual level, and Saruman's sundered staff was the physical, somewhat symbolic evidence of the outcome of that invisible battle.

You're still looking at them as being two different things. What littlemanpoet is saying is that the two are closely interconnected, not that they are just occurring at the same time.

Out of curiosity, do you think the Balrog could have defeated Gandalf with his fighting prowess alone?