[obloquy]

Yes, but what were they?

I have actually changed my mind about the meaning of the 'kelvar' and 'olvar'. I think these words probably just mean the same as 'fauna' and 'flora', respectively. Now I say that the Ents are just another of Tolkien's mysteries. Much like Dragons.

The evidence for Goldberry being Yavanna is very sketchy (and rather far fetched in my opinion).

Of course it's sketchy. So is the 'evidence' of Dragons being Maiar.

There is no explicit statement regarding her true nature.

Dragons are only spoken of as being devised or bred by Melkor. How is that any more revealing than what we know of Goldberry?

Dragons are at least explicitly spoken of in the text as having spirits in them.

Are you saying you doubt whether Goldberry has a fea?

..., and [Glaurung] spoke by the evil spirit within him.

This is interesting. The way this reads implies that the speaker was not Glaurung, but the spirit within Glaurung. What is Glaurung and why is there a distinction between him and his spirit? Seems like a passage that one might use in defense of the Morgoth-the-puppeteer theory.

I do not believe that the spirit of any mere beast (assuming that beasts have spirits) would be capable of the actions of the dragons that are described to us.

Of course not. They didn't just come out of the wild with these abilities. Morgoth tinkered with them.

But didn't we just establish that Balrogs were also bound to their bodies?

Yeah, so?

So do these later dragons only have part of a spirit[...]?

They have a hybrid spirit, like Luthien. Luthien was neither Maia nor fully Elf. These later Dragons would be Maia-enhanced beasts. The theory is similar to one possible explanation of Orc origins.

how does that work if the bodies of new dragons were not inhabited by Maiar spirits?

When you say 'bodies inhabited by Maiar spirits', you're describing what we refer to as 'clothed' Maiar. Dragons must necessarily be incarnate Maiar (if Maiar at all), because they did not survive the death of their hroar. This is why the above quote (Glaurung speaking by the spirit within him) doesn't quite fit with the Maiarin origin theory. The passage is written as if Glaurung is merely a vessel. It would certainly be possible for a Maia to pilot a Dragon-ship, but when the body was slain, the spirit would not go with it.

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]