[Kuruharan]

One small note before we get started.

Dwarves of Novgorod

Novgorod is an ancient and culturally significant city located in northern Russia.

Nogrod, on the other hand, was the citadel in the Blue Mountains of the Firebeard Dwarves. Its real name was Tumunzahar.

There's a small difference between the two cities.

And then cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown after Luthien sung him to sleep.

Let me re-emphasize, after Luthien sung him to sleep. She did all the hard work of beating the Will of Morgoth, while Beren cowered before the throne. While it undoubtedly required great strength of character to approach even the unconscious form of Morgoth and cut the Silmaril, it simply does not bear comparison to Hurin's ordeal. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth of it.

One thing I forgot for my list before- Beren reclaimed a Silmaril twice: once from Morgoth, and once from the Dwarves of Novgorod (Nogrod) after they murdered Thingol and stole it with the Nauglamir.

And recovered it from the Great Wolf Carcharoth. I hate to say this about something as grand as these feats, but color me unimpressed. He was not alone when he went to Angband. He had the aid of the greatest child of Iluvatar (who as I said earlier actually did most of the dirty work from the time she rescued him from Sauron down to the very end). And they had a goal that they could accomplish, obtaining a Silmaril, even though that goal looked absurd.

Hurin was alone with Morgoth (Great Enemy of the World, you remember him). Faced the greatest primordial spirit ever created, eye to eye (no small feat), and basically spat in Morgoth's eye. Hurin had no goal but resistance to the Will of Morgoth, for all that Hurin knew, for the rest of Time. A MUCH more difficult task than anything Beren and Luthien ever faced. (Well maybe with the exception of Luthien facing Mandos since she was actually challenging the Will of Iluvatar, but that had nothing to do with Beren. More on that later.)

About taking the Nauglamir (why is it that when Beren takes the Nauglamir by force its "taking" but when the Dwarves of Nogord, who actually made the blasted thing, take the Nauglamir by force it's called "stealing?") Anyway, as much as I hate to admit it, it does not require extraordinary and spectacular courage to fight a battle against one of the normal races (Dwarves, Men, Elves, Orcs...) of Middle Earth. Not to say that it does not require courage, but literally thousands and thousands of people in the stories displayed the same type of courage. It does not show that Beren had and unusually large amount of it. Especially since Beren was being helped by walking trees, and those stuck-up, pointy-eared, tree-huggin' twits, uh-I mean Elves. So while this incident clearly showed that Beren was a murderous barbarian who needed to learn respect for his betters, it does not particularly show the greatness of his soul.

(Notice how this guy can't ever seem to do anything alone, while Hurin's claim to fame is his enduring while alone.)

The fact that Luthien got Beren out of the Halls doesn't change the fact that he went and came back.

No, but it changes any claim that may be made for him that the alleged greatness of his spirit was the reason why he got out.

Luthien was obviously the best thing that happened to Beren. What she got out of this deal I haven't quite figured out yet.

Let's not forget, however, that Hurin was the one who led Morgoth to the location of Gondolin.

Not totally. And not of his own free will.

Finally, I vote for Aragorn, as the culmination of his ancestors, and the ultimate vindicator of all of their successess and shortcomings. His Wisdom shows that so much was learned, and he clearly walks in the shoes of Elendil, Elros, Earendil, Tuor, Turin and Beren.

*Sigh* So many to convert, so little time.

As I have said a few times before, Greatest of all the Ainur vs. puny little mortal Hurin for years upon years, and Hurin did not give in. What exactly did Aragorn do? He went gallivanting about the countryside with Hobbits. His leadership of the Fellowship after Gandalf fell, er...(how to put this delicately) did not go so well. He then went charging across country with an Elf and a Dwarf chasing after Hobbits. He fought quite well at the Battle of Helm's Deep. Stove with Sauron's spirit, (no small feat). Had the brilliant strategic idea to halt the Enemy's fleet to prevent reinforcement. Had the even more brilliant tactical idea to use dead guys to scare the crap out of the Enemy's troops (using the Enemy's own power-troop type against him, if only Aragorn had kept them around longer.) Rescued Minas Tirith. Fought glorious Battle of Morannon. Was a Great King for a good long time. Obviously this was a wonderful guy.

However, the only thing that come close to Hurin is the struggle with Sauron. This was a spiritual struggle against a Sauron that was considerably weakened from his prime. Facing some enemy physically is much worse than just spiritually. When faced with a being like Morgoth or Sauron, then you have to face their spirit and their massive physical might at the same time. Hurin physically faced a Morgoth, who admittedly was not what he once was, but was still more than overwhelming in his majesty and terror. Hurin was a helpless prisoner. Hurin was not even going to have death as a means of escape from his torment. Hurin gave Morgoth a verbal spit in the eye.

If the category is the power of their spirit, their "greatness of soul" I still feel that the obvious choice to make is Hurin.

My complements though! I haven't enjoyed a Tolkien debate this much in months!
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[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]