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Rhudladion · 01-08-2002, 09:16 PM

Lots of great discussions going on in here.

Let me begin on topic by saying that I think Hobbits can definitely be evil: stealing spoons from your kin is evil is it not? Also, even if the Hobbits were "forced" to do bad things at the end of the ROTK, if they enjoyed it or accepted it (i.e. Lotho) does that make it less evil? What I mean by this is that the heart may be evil and the person seem blameless.
Secondly, on the discussion Zifnab started about the symbiotic relationship between good and evil: If "too much good is bad", then we end up having to say that too much good is evil and this doesn't seem quite possible to me. Also, Whether or not there was always some form of evil in the beginning depends on what your worldview is (actually the truth doesn't depend on anyone's worldview)...I'm inclined to think that in the beginning there was no evil. Furthermore, I agree with Schack, in that "you do not have to have evil in order to have good." However, the definition that Schack gives for good doesn't allow us to escape from Zifnab's theory: we still end up defining things in terms of 'what they are not' as Zifnab points out: "Wouldn't good be nothing more than the complete lack of evil, also?" If we continue to define things in terms of what they are not then we must define "life" as the absence of "death", "love" as the absence of "hate", "caring" as the absence of "apathy"....what a crappy dictionary! Now, of course one CANNOT be hateful and loving at the same time, and one CAN hate a certain thing and love another, but the existence of that love does not depend upon the existence of hate. I think if we are to use common sense as our guide, which, not discarding reason, we must often use, the burden of proof should lie with one who claims evil is necessary for good to exist, and not vice versa. Now, I know what's coming from many of you: "How could we call good, good if there is no evil from which to make the distinction?" Simple:We find us a being who created everything from nothing and who claims that He is the definition of "good" and that all he creates and allows is "good", and not just because it is not evil. I think the God of the universe makes this claim, and I think Lluvatar makes it as well. This requires faith? Heck yes it does. "It's a fool that looks for logic in the hearts of men."

Halbarad: I would say that disobedience originates from evil.

Ghâshgûl: I think the evil in ME is exactly like the evil in reality. You've defined evil as acting unethically. I define it as acting in opposition to God's/Lluvatar's will. I don't think the Nazgul are evil merely because they bow to Sauron. They, like Sauron, love evil things. Certainly Sauron is not evil just because he is Sauron. He is evil because he opposes Lluvatar and things Lluvatar says are good. If you are suggesting that your claim is sound because the peoples of ME don't exist in this world, well I'm just taken aback! I had an unexpected party just the other day….
Oh yea…"no free will"??? Mustering the strength of the "free peoples" of ME was the sole purpose of the Istari!

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ]

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ]

01-08-2002, 09:16 PM	#32
Rhudladion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 63	Lots of great discussions going on in here. Let me begin on topic by saying that I think Hobbits can definitely be evil: stealing spoons from your kin is evil is it not? Also, even if the Hobbits were "forced" to do bad things at the end of the ROTK, if they enjoyed it or accepted it (i.e. Lotho) does that make it less evil? What I mean by this is that the heart may be evil and the person seem blameless. Secondly, on the discussion Zifnab started about the symbiotic relationship between good and evil: If "too much good is bad", then we end up having to say that too much good is evil and this doesn't seem quite possible to me. Also, Whether or not there was always some form of evil in the beginning depends on what your worldview is (actually the truth doesn't depend on anyone's worldview)...I'm inclined to think that in the beginning there was no evil. Furthermore, I agree with Schack, in that "you do not have to have evil in order to have good." However, the definition that Schack gives for good doesn't allow us to escape from Zifnab's theory: we still end up defining things in terms of 'what they are not' as Zifnab points out: "Wouldn't good be nothing more than the complete lack of evil, also?" If we continue to define things in terms of what they are not then we must define "life" as the absence of "death", "love" as the absence of "hate", "caring" as the absence of "apathy"....what a crappy dictionary! Now, of course one CANNOT be hateful and loving at the same time, and one CAN hate a certain thing and love another, but the existence of that love does not depend upon the existence of hate. I think if we are to use common sense as our guide, which, not discarding reason, we must often use, the burden of proof should lie with one who claims evil is necessary for good to exist, and not vice versa. Now, I know what's coming from many of you: "How could we call good, good if there is no evil from which to make the distinction?" Simple:We find us a being who created everything from nothing and who claims that He is the definition of "good" and that all he creates and allows is "good", and not just because it is not evil. I think the God of the universe makes this claim, and I think Lluvatar makes it as well. This requires faith? Heck yes it does. "It's a fool that looks for logic in the hearts of men." Halbarad: I would say that disobedience originates from evil. Ghâshgûl: I think the evil in ME is exactly like the evil in reality. You've defined evil as acting unethically. I define it as acting in opposition to God's/Lluvatar's will. I don't think the Nazgul are evil merely because they bow to Sauron. They, like Sauron, love evil things. Certainly Sauron is not evil just because he is Sauron. He is evil because he opposes Lluvatar and things Lluvatar says are good. If you are suggesting that your claim is sound because the peoples of ME don't exist in this world, well I'm just taken aback! I had an unexpected party just the other day…. Oh yea…"no free will"??? Mustering the strength of the "free peoples" of ME was the sole purpose of the Istari! [ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ] [ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ]