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Kalessin · 03-04-2002, 09:36 PM

Glenethor, heh, I really appreciated your (earlier) post, and agree with more than a little of what you say (don't worry, I'm not going into Bilbo's ambiguous party speech here).

Hi Aiwendul - ex-Dungeonmaster here, I have been there bigtime, and enjoyed it too [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

You said "If I agreed that a certain Indian piece had more musical virtue than something else, I would like it better than that thing"

Basically that means, whatever you like best, is the best. Or, if something is better than something else, you will like it more. I guess that hinges on the individual and subjective relationship between the reader and the book. Which means the same as "I like Star Trek more than Lolita, therefore Star Trek is better". So you can't challenge Britney being better than LotR to those that enjoy her more [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I have no problem with that. In effect that's the primacy of personal subjectivity. Which means that for you, the aesthetically best piece of art is that which you like best (because it has more aesthetic virtues, or whichever way round you want it). Cool. All it means is that we can't have a discussion.

You misunderstood the icecream thing. Usefulness to society etc. wasn't part of the agenda. I was just showing the logical possibility of making qualititave distinctions in art that were at odds with personal preference. You don't agree with that whole premise, so see above.

No hostility at all here, certainly not from me. I relish discussion, and as I said my purpose was to inject a sense of perspective here. If we can rib each other in a stimulating and good-humoured way while exploring some of these weighty concepts, all the better!

Re. RPGs etc. "in RPGs these things exist on quite the same level as for the novel" ... well we might have to get into definition of terms to take this further. Actually I do think the development of RPG worlds IS an act of creativity. But there is a jump from creativity, as it manifests in many areas of life, and literature, as one of the fundamental mediums of communication. But we are back into definitions here [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Finally, your start points - that to entertain is the essential nature of art ; and that the measure of aesthetic quality is how much art is liked - are pretty postmodern. As a romantic idealist myself, we are therefore forever in polar opposition [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] My McDonalds skit is a kind of postmodern 'life-as-performance' concept ... or 'life-as-RPG'.

By the way, my D&D realm was influenced by Tolkien to some degree, also by my love of ancient myths. I spent hours on maps and contextual notes, I constructed certain laws of magic that were structured and constrained in the same way physical laws were, and I tried to provide as many choices and scenarios as possible to minimise the number and importance of dice rolls. As I said, I accept it was a creative act, and I don't look down my nose on it. I also consider it as part of my personal development as a storyteller (along with other creative non-literary activities). So please don't be offended by the fact we disagree about RPGs (and probably everything else) ... put it down to my cantankerous age [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. BTW, my early gamesmasters included Steve Jackson (before he created Eidos) and the other founders of White Dwarf, so I think I have reasonable credentials to at least talk about RPGs. And I always liked the little metal models!

Maximum peace

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

03-04-2002, 09:36 PM	#64
Kalessin Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Earthsea, or London Posts: 175	Glenethor, heh, I really appreciated your (earlier) post, and agree with more than a little of what you say (don't worry, I'm not going into Bilbo's ambiguous party speech here). Hi Aiwendul - ex-Dungeonmaster here, I have been there bigtime, and enjoyed it too [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. You said "If I agreed that a certain Indian piece had more musical virtue than something else, I would like it better than that thing" Basically that means, whatever you like best, is the best. Or, if something is better than something else, you will like it more. I guess that hinges on the individual and subjective relationship between the reader and the book. Which means the same as "I like Star Trek more than Lolita, therefore Star Trek is better". So you can't challenge Britney being better than LotR to those that enjoy her more [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I have no problem with that. In effect that's the primacy of personal subjectivity. Which means that for you, the aesthetically best piece of art is that which you like best (because it has more aesthetic virtues, or whichever way round you want it). Cool. All it means is that we can't have a discussion. You misunderstood the icecream thing. Usefulness to society etc. wasn't part of the agenda. I was just showing the logical possibility of making qualititave distinctions in art that were at odds with personal preference. You don't agree with that whole premise, so see above. No hostility at all here, certainly not from me. I relish discussion, and as I said my purpose was to inject a sense of perspective here. If we can rib each other in a stimulating and good-humoured way while exploring some of these weighty concepts, all the better! Re. RPGs etc. "in RPGs these things exist on quite the same level as for the novel" ... well we might have to get into definition of terms to take this further. Actually I do think the development of RPG worlds IS an act of creativity. But there is a jump from creativity, as it manifests in many areas of life, and literature, as one of the fundamental mediums of communication. But we are back into definitions here [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Finally, your start points - that to entertain is the essential nature of art ; and that the measure of aesthetic quality is how much art is liked - are pretty postmodern. As a romantic idealist myself, we are therefore forever in polar opposition [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] My McDonalds skit is a kind of postmodern 'life-as-performance' concept ... or 'life-as-RPG'. By the way, my D&D realm was influenced by Tolkien to some degree, also by my love of ancient myths. I spent hours on maps and contextual notes, I constructed certain laws of magic that were structured and constrained in the same way physical laws were, and I tried to provide as many choices and scenarios as possible to minimise the number and importance of dice rolls. As I said, I accept it was a creative act, and I don't look down my nose on it. I also consider it as part of my personal development as a storyteller (along with other creative non-literary activities). So please don't be offended by the fact we disagree about RPGs (and probably everything else) ... put it down to my cantankerous age [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. BTW, my early gamesmasters included Steve Jackson (before he created Eidos) and the other founders of White Dwarf, so I think I have reasonable credentials to at least talk about RPGs. And I always liked the little metal models! Maximum peace [ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]