Okay, I guess we're unlikely to agree about this barring some kind of total personality conversion by one of us. But I can't refrain from a few more comments.
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In the end, it's your point that "in music what sounds best is best". ie. whatever I/ we/ you/ like best is therefore the best for each of us. The primacy of subjectivity.
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Well, this is almost what I mean, except that I still maintain that someone can be
wrong about what is the best. Even to someone who likes Britney Spears, she is not 'good'. The person merely thinks that she is good. So there is still an objectivity here.
However, I'd also say that art is nonetheless subjective on the deepest level. That is, art and aesthetics are a human invention; they are not physical properties of the universe. So essentially I think that there are three levels in the quality of art: the deepest level, the definition of art (subjective); the level of aestheticism (an objective analysis of our subjective definition); and the level of understanding (the subjective beliefs of someone who does not fully understand the objective conventions).
But that's getting a good deal more complex than is necessary.
Our real disagreement seems to be on the purpose of art. I say that art is beauty, and beauty is that which pleases. You seem to be saying that pleasure is a biproduct of art, not the intended product. And I don't think either of us is going to convince the other.
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I've really enjoyed this discussion
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I as well. It's good to see someone else who has put some careful and considered work into RPGs, even if you don't extend your definition of art to cover them.
Mister Underhill: You make some excellent points, but I'm forced to disagree about games such as chess and basketball being valid forms of art; I will, however, make a small concession to postmodernism (what an unfortunate term, etymologically - how can something be more modern than modern?) and say that there may on occasion be aestheticism in such things. But not enough to elevate them to the status of literature (or RPGs!)
[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]