[The Saucepan Man]

Oh well, I guess all that can be said is that you go with the early stuff and I go with the later stuff. (Nils)

Well, I'd prefer to say that I go with the impressions that I have gained from reading the Books, and which make sense to me.

And if I learn subsequently that the author had later ideas which conflict with those impressions, particularly if (as is the case with the origins and sentience of Orcs), they are unresolved, I do not feel that I am bound to accept them. I am happy to if they make sense to me, but Orcs as soulless, non-rational beasts just doesn't make sense, based on how they are portrayed in LotR.

One characteristic of a "race" as we consider it today is the ability to breed offspring who are not impotent and who share characteristics with their parents. It was obviously by art that we do not understand that the Elves were corrupted into Orcs, meaning that they became a new race and their offspring did not have Elvish qualities. (Lord of Angmar)

Obviously, Sauron could not have had such a large army without breeding Orcs. Either with other Orcs, or prehaps with some other fell creature. Thus, we get something seperate from the first Orcs: the tortured Elves. Plus, Sauron could have made improvements to the design at any time, making them more and more creatures and less and less a race such as Elves or Men. (Durelin)

Yes, although Orcs originated as debased Elves, they did (as I understand it)subsequently breed amongst themselves. So, later generations would not be debased Elves, but the offspring of debased Elves or the offspring of the offspring of debased Elves, and so on. And yes, they were bred by Sauron (and probably by Morgoth before him), whether selectively or with other races, to create different strains: the Uruk Hai, for example. But I don't see why either of those processes should deny them their rationality or their soul.

What does seem clear to me is that Tolkien wanted Orcs to originate with Men instead of Elves. (Nils)

I don't have a problem with the concept of Orcs originating from Men. Indeed, it would solve a lot of problems, such as whether or not they are immortal and whether or not their souls go to Mandos when they die. Questions such as these are, I believe, why Tolkien started thinking in terms of Orcs as debased Men. My difficulty, however, is a logical/temporal one. How could Orcs have their origin in Man when Orcs were around before Men awoke?

However, Tolkien does not seem to waver from his view that they arose in whole or in part from sentient Elves/Men who possessed Feär. (Mithadan)

So I would conclude that, whether they originated from Men or Elves, and however subsequent breeding (amongst themselves or by Morgoth and Sauron) might have affected them, Orcs are rational beings with souls.

Which once again brings me back to my (still unresolved) question:

Accepting that Iluvatar is good ... why would he not allow the Orcs the possibility of redemption when they had no choice in being born as Orcs in the first place?