[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Forgive me if this interrupts the discussion in any way, but I'm going to be hailing back a couple of days to the posts immediately following my last one for this reply (this thread having apparently become incredibly popular over those two days). I feel that I am being totally misunderstood by a certain Nils in what I say, over two points.

First, though, a message directed at the Lord of Angmar, who said this:

Gwaihir, when Tolkien used the word "slaves" I do not think that he intended it to be so narrow as to limit it to one race. I believe that this term encompasses all the minions of Sauron, of which the chief party was orcs.

Do you honestly think that Aragorn would give Men and Orcs the same land together to live in? This is totally incompatible. The quote in which the liberation of Sauron's slaves is found in, I think, is probably talking about how Aragorn dealt with the Men that served Sauron, as it also talks about Harad and Rhun. The land of Nurn was in fact inhabited by human slaves in the first place, so it was that land that he gave them.

You said that this is a minor issue, but I disagree. This was, as people were arguing, the only apparent time when Orcs were 'forgiven' and set free to do as they wished. If it didn't happen, as it probably (to my judgement anyway [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) didn't, then there is no case at all of the Orcs deserving any forgiveness and gifts from Men or Elves. There were many wise leaders of both races, and of the Valar, and none considered the Orcs to be capable of being redeemed -- at least in Arda.

So this significantly damages the (still wierd-seeming) idea of Orcs not being evil.

Nils, I see where you are coming from, but I don't think you quite understand me. Anyway I'm just going to conclude it for you.
From you:

Evidently you don't believe that Middle-earth is Tolkien's world. If you did, then you wouldn't believe certain things were just Tolkien's personal ideas. According to Tolkien, Eru is good and is not evil. Eru is not in a fallen state. It seems to me that you are introducing your own personal view of God (at least 'if' God exists God must be both good and evil).

Of course Arda is Tolkien's world, but still of course he had personal ideas that I may or may not agree with. What you would have me do is simply recite Tolkien's quotes and fall into the ideas and beliefs he held, not making any independant observations of my own. I am not Tolkien (although I immensely enjoy his work) and may in the occasional circumstance be allowed an individual idea of my own, don't you think? I don't know how you are going to be operating in your posts here as I haven't seen many of them yet, and the method you advocate may be fine for you. I personally wish to be more thoughful than that.

Independant observations are all I am making. I assure you that Tolkien's words, when they concern his work, are held as very important to me.

Eru is not in a fallen state.

This is the second thing. Perhaps I should explain it out a bit more. I did not imply at all that Eru was 'fallen', as, then, I would not be fit to be in here. Illuvatar is of course God, the lord of all. What I see in Tolkien is that the Ainur, the world of Ea and everything in it proceeds directly from Tolkien, so that it is really a kind of great Thought and dream of his with a beginning and an end that takes form. Thus, everything on earth is his ultimately;

In the end he shall see that nothing is done that hath not its uttermost source in me.

Do you see now? That is my observation, that does not seem to be contradicted by anything Tolkien says, my conclusion that I have come to from his work. To be 'fallen', Illuvatar would have to be totally corrupted. Clearly not the case, and I didn't imply it; Illuvatar is indeed good, the highest of all things. If what I have talked about is the case, then every mood and way of thinking is reflected in the all-encompassing mind of Illuvatar;

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Illuvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought... for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Illuvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deepr understanding, and increased in unison and harmony..

(Forgive me for using the Silm and not a later source, but as it is in fact the foundation of Tolkien's literature and a damn relevent piece of writing, I felt it would be fitting to use this passage to exemplify what I am saying. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Finally, the last part of your post that I'll reply to:

It seems to me that you are introducing your own personal view of God (at least 'if' God exists God must be both good and evil).

It occurs to me that perhaps you are over-parallelling the Eru of Ea to the Christian God. This parallell is there, but the two are not exactly the same. C.S. Lewis used his fantasy to parallell Christian theology, but Tolkien -- while similar in some ways -- is really a thing of its own.

Anyway, that's it -- again, sorry for not participating in the recent (i.e. within last day =/) discussions, but I felt I needed to take this up. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ August 01, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]