[Nils]

You still don't have it, Nils. Listen for once and thou shalt understand.

Nice sarcasm again. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Believe me, I get what you are saying.

I think it likely that they, all arrayed together, represent the various thoughts and comprehensions that make up Illuvatar's mind. Some, and especially one (Melkor) of these Ainur, see the use and power of evil and use it for their own ends.

I believe I accurately described this and said I disagreed with it when I said:

Each being is not some part of Eru's personality.

I am aware of the fact that I am basing my view of this on Tolkien's other writings that you don't believe hold much water.

As Melkor himself came from Illuvatar directly, it is clear that in the pre-mentioned 'all-encompassing intellect of Illuvatar' the kind of mind that Melkor has got is understood and known there. It does not mean that Illuvatar is like Melkor, because he isn't. He is also like Manwe, Yavanna, Mandos, Ulmo and all the others.

I never said you were saying he is 'only' like Melkor. From your statement "his is also like", it is pretty clear you mean that there is a component of Eru which is like Melkor.

You may not want to admit this and call me thick headed for pointing this out, but that's OK.

As I said, his mind is all-encompassing and understands all of these minds. In the addition of Melkor to this, the capacity to recognise the power and use of evil is clearly also something that Eru posesses.

It seems to me that you are basing this on assumption since Eru never uses his power for evil.

I find it very unlikely that Eru would use his power to go against his own plan. But hey, you look at God your way and I'll look at God my way.

Evil is comprehended by Illuvatar as well as it is by Melkor, but that does not mean that Illuvatar is Melkor (as you seem to think I am implicating). In a sense Eru can be said to see beyond it, which is something Melkor cannot.

I don't believe that Melkor understands evil. One need not understand something to be something. I agree with you that Eru does see beyond it which was something Melkor could not do.

it does not in any way imply that I consider Morgoth's Ring to be irrelevant. As you'll notice, I never actually said this or anything that could normally be interpreted as such.

Oh, I don't know, you said that Tolkien was just an observer. If you gave weight to what Morgoth's Ring says, you wouldn't hold the view that Orcs are Elves. That was my reason.

So please, stop putting words in my mouth and stop telling me what I am saying regardless of my honest protests that you have got me wrong; I already know what I am saying, and it is utterly pointless to tell me that I am saying something else when in fact I'm not.

Sorry if you don't see what I'm trying to say. It is as clear as day that you believe Eru has an evil component. As your 'also' remark points out.