[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Not feeling sorry for yourself are you? I can tell you that Saulotus, who I also held in very high regard, would not have done what you have in this thread. Your apology is of course accepted, though. This quote-war that you have waged has been most irritating.

Basically what has happened is that you have jumped on every little by-point raised, magnified and exagerated it and then thrashed it, giving the raiser of the point (or, as I said, by-point) an aggreved tongue-lashing on the way. Your assumption that I believe Orcs to be corrupted Elves ('If you gave weight to what Morgoth's Ring says, you wouldn't hold the view that Orcs are Elves') is wrong. I don't know where they came from; I don't actually really hold a firm view on the subject of Orcish origin. That's the point of debate. Neither do you know where they come from, although you seem to hold yourself utterly correct and react inflamedly to everyone else's suggestions (which does not add to your own argument at all, as, something you have demonstrated, you can sort of peter out over it).

I never said you were saying he is 'only' like Melkor. From your statement "his is also like", it is pretty clear you mean that there is a component of Eru which is like Melkor.

Alright, but then why do you assume that because Melkor's mind is contained within Illuvatar's larger intellect meant that Illuvatar was evil? Anyway, I actually did mean that 'there is a component of Eru which is like Melkor'. That's exactly what I meant. However, as I said, Illuvatar goes beyond this, so that while he can see and concieve of a Melkor-like mind he is not this himself.

The accusory tones of this post are therefore misplaced.

That you said this

I am aware of the fact that I am basing my view of this on Tolkien's other writings that you don't believe hold much water.

after my assurance that I do in fact consider all of Tolkien's writings to hold 'water' shows the continuing 'thick'ness that you have denied to be in fact plain to see.

Anyway, the Lord of Angmar's summary is a fairly good one. This thread hasn't been bad, actually, despite the conflict encountered. Thanks again for it, by the way. As for Nils -- let's try and establish some sort of workable relationship now, ok? In future discussions I do not wish to repeat this.

[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]