[Nils]

Not feeling sorry for yourself are you?

Not at all. I had just read the thread Orcish Fear and it dawned on me that this topic was discussed long ago and the same arguments that Saul dealt with were being used again. Since I am no where near the scholar Saul is, I decided what I was attempting to do was futile.

I can tell you that Saulotus, who I also held in very high regard, would not have done what you have in this thread.

Yes I know. What I said, I said out of frustration and I am sorry. I should have followed Saul's example and said:

Believe what you will.

If it is the only theory that makes sense; then why did Tolkien reject it himself?
Why did he spend years devising a new origin?

No-one is in disagreement about the original thought concerning orcs, only that their origin evolved, and its the evolution that is erringly disregarded (yourself inclusive).

Again; believe what you will.

Your assumption that I believe Orcs to be corrupted Elves ('If you gave weight to what Morgoth's Ring says, you wouldn't hold the view that Orcs are Elves') is wrong. I don't know where they came from; I don't actually really hold a firm view on the subject of Orcish origin.

I'm sorry, I guess I got you and Saucepan-man mixed up.

Neither do you know where they come from, although you seem to hold yourself utterly correct and react inflamedly to everyone else's suggestions (which does not add to your own argument at all, as, something you have demonstrated, you can sort of peter out over it).

As I said, I should have said what Saul said long ago.

Are you done with your reprimand now?

Alright, but then why do you assume that because Melkor's mind is contained within Illuvatar's larger intellect meant that Illuvatar was evil? Anyway, I actually did mean that 'there is a component of Eru which is like Melkor'. That's exactly what I meant. However, as I said, Illuvatar goes beyond this, so that while he can see and concieve of a Melkor-like mind he is not this himself.

Ah yes, there was another issue here. If you don't mind, lets drop the Ork thing and concentrate on this issue.

The problem I have with your view is that it means that there is a component of evil within God. This does not fit with the Christian belief of God and as I said earlier, Tolkien's writing was heavily influenced by his Christian beliefs.

Give me a while and I'll post a reply with quotes. Do you consider Letters to be an authoritative source of information?

[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]