Thread: Inherent Evil
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Old 08-05-2003, 10:38 AM   #92
Keneldil the Polka-dot
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Michigan
Posts: 128
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Quote:
An incarnate being has both a fea (soul) and hroa(body). According to Tolkien, the hroa does have an effect upon the fea
Good point, Nils. But..... then someone with a handicap (a corrupted hroa in some way) could claim that as justification for doing something against the will of Eru? I see your point, but I don't know that it overshadows the orc's ability to make choices.

Gwaihir, I think we are in agreement: orcs are not tools. They do have fea. I am saying that having fea means the orcs CHOOSE to do bad things, and that alone is what makes them evil. Not some birthright passed on from events entirely outside their ability to affect.

Quote:
I still think Orcs would be evil inherently as they are, in essence, sources of evil. Wells (i.e. water-wells), if you like, of evilness upon earth. Simply put, as they can never be anything other than evil things (contrary to Illuvatar's will) in Arda, they are evil in their very fibres.
Maybe we disagree about the nature of evil itself, in which case we are going to have to agree to disagree. In the above quote, Gwaihir seems to be saying they are of the substance of evil. It is part of what makes them. In my opinion evil is not a thing or substance, it is making a choice to do that which is against the will of Eru.

If evil were not a choice for orcs, and was simply in the fibers of their being, then how can they ever be redeemed? If they cannot ever choose to do good, then it would seem redemption is not for them. I admit, it seems ridiculous to imagine an orc choosing to do good, but I see no other way they could be redeemed.

Quote:
Humans can be used as tools. Anyone can be manipulated.
I agree, anyone can become a tool. In order for a sentient being to become a tool they have to either give up the ability to make choices, or have it taken from them by force. The chain of who is actually responsible for actions taken gets a bit twisted at this point. I think there is a difference in being a tool, and being manipulated though. Or perhaps there are degrees to which one can give up their ability to choose, I don't know. I better think about it some more.

Interesting point at the end of your post Kaiserin. Only the original intention can stand on its own. I better think about that one too.
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