The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Deeper symbolism and hidden meanings in the books

**lindil** · 01-24-2003, 08:58 AM

"numbers were important to Norse and Celtic pagans, and since Tolkien dipped his ladle in those vats, it's no surprise that he came out with significance in numbers."

Numbers were [ and are] important to Christians also, and JRRT was a rather well read one!

So I find 1/2 of the original premise [deeper symbolism] of this thread a sound one, even if some of the examples thus far given tenuous.

As for the 'hidden meanings'. Well I suppose as per the Bible code example one can torture [ although a few of the Bible code extrapolations are if I recall correctly based on traditional Hebrew Gematria [a number science if you will] and rather interesting. However, one would be truly hard pressed to place at God's feet the responsibiltity for some of them.

Nonetheless I will add a bit to the already boiling pot ...

I have always found the various races to be indicitave of the various aspects of man's personality, also I have [ due to my previous taoist training seen clear evidence of the 'Five Elements' of Chinese medicine/culture, not that JRRT was in any way aware of them but that any organic creation almost always will conform to this or some other primal pattern [such as the Four 'western' Elements or Yin/Yang or the 3 essences of ayurveda]

Hobbit's - down to 'Earth' practical - shortsighted in general.

Dwarves [ and Noldor ] - Metal - concerned with creating and shaping of things from the resources at hand. Power over their enviroment.

Men [ and the teleri] - Water - changeable, unstable, able to tkae on any qualities if concious or likely to fall into inherited or prevailing qualities if not 'asleep'.Hard to purify once tainted, without resorting to extremes of heat [i.e. suffering].

Elves - Wood/Air - creative in all areas, but self-centered, master's of all things if they stick to it long enough. tendency to pride and arrogance must constantly be battled.

Fire - the Ainur [ as they are of an altogether different order of being than the free peoples I will leave aside the personality aspects, especially as the valar each exhibit very pure types of their own]

...that is just my own take on things.

I would by no means say that JRRT certainly had these things in mind when he wrote [although then again maybe he did]. I would rather guess that he sub-created from the wellsping of imagery and myth and thus drew on Archetypal and primal symbolism that is nigh on inexhaustible and full of patterns and elemental relationships.

[ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

01-24-2003, 08:58 AM	#16
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	"numbers were important to Norse and Celtic pagans, and since Tolkien dipped his ladle in those vats, it's no surprise that he came out with significance in numbers." Numbers were [ and are] important to Christians also, and JRRT was a rather well read one! So I find 1/2 of the original premise [deeper symbolism] of this thread a sound one, even if some of the examples thus far given tenuous. As for the 'hidden meanings'. Well I suppose as per the Bible code example one can torture [ although a few of the Bible code extrapolations are if I recall correctly based on traditional Hebrew Gematria [a number science if you will] and rather interesting. However, one would be truly hard pressed to place at God's feet the responsibiltity for some of them. Nonetheless I will add a bit to the already boiling pot ... I have always found the various races to be indicitave of the various aspects of man's personality, also I have [ due to my previous taoist training seen clear evidence of the 'Five Elements' of Chinese medicine/culture, not that JRRT was in any way aware of them but that any organic creation almost always will conform to this or some other primal pattern [such as the Four 'western' Elements or Yin/Yang or the 3 essences of ayurveda] Hobbit's - down to 'Earth' practical - shortsighted in general. Dwarves [ and Noldor ] - Metal - concerned with creating and shaping of things from the resources at hand. Power over their enviroment. Men [ and the teleri] - Water - changeable, unstable, able to tkae on any qualities if concious or likely to fall into inherited or prevailing qualities if not 'asleep'.Hard to purify once tainted, without resorting to extremes of heat [i.e. suffering]. Elves - Wood/Air - creative in all areas, but self-centered, master's of all things if they stick to it long enough. tendency to pride and arrogance must constantly be battled. Fire - the Ainur [ as they are of an altogether different order of being than the free peoples I will leave aside the personality aspects, especially as the valar each exhibit very pure types of their own] ...that is just my own take on things. I would by no means say that JRRT certainly had these things in mind when he wrote [although then again maybe he did]. I would rather guess that he sub-created from the wellsping of imagery and myth and thus drew on Archetypal and primal symbolism that is nigh on inexhaustible and full of patterns and elemental relationships. [ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.