The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Deeper symbolism and hidden meanings in the books

doug*platypus · 01-26-2003, 06:03 AM

Here are two links to other threads about Tolkien's numbers. I didn't find many at all using the search engine - thanks for starting the thread, Eruantalon!

5 Istari

The Power of Nine

The symbolism of 5 is better delved into on the second thread - it is seen as possibly representing the hand. 5 was definitely an important number to megalithic people for this reason, and it is safe to assume that it could have developed significance in the cultures of Arda.

~ 5 ~
The Five Istari may have been sent as the hand of the Valar, the hand being that part of the body which is most often used for action. The five hobbits who set out were similarly performing action. Five seemed to be the number (coincidentally perhaps) required to initiate the journey.

There were apparently only five passengers to the west in the last chapter of LOTR - Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Frodo and Bilbo. These five were the chief instruments of the defeat of Sauron, at least in terms of LOTR. Aragorn is excluded because he needs to stay in Gondor, although he formed the fifth member of Frodo's company from Bree to Rivendell.

On the subject of hands, it is surely significant that both Frodo and Sauron lose a finger. Frodo only loses his finger because he falls (not literally) at the end and claims the Ring. Perhaps this is some kind of punishment meted out, that both he and Sauron lose a digit through possession of the One Ring. Gollum loses much more than his finger in the Sammath Naur.

This also led me to think that if Sauron put each of the Nazgûl's rings on his fingers, then before Isildur disfingered him, he would have had his hands full. This is a possible explanation for the Nine Nazgûl, although it (perhaps sensibly) doesn't allow for the rings of the elves or dwarves. This leads me to picture Sauron as some jewellery-wearing early day Don King, with Mike Tyson the evil Witch-King of Angmar.

But wait, there's more... we have so far neglected the most obvious use of significant numbers, as used by Bilbo himself. He turns 111 at the same time that Frodo turns 33. 111 is a very odd number (quite apart from being the emergency number in NZ). It's product is 1, which is the only digit that it contains. Its sum is 3, which matches the two threes in Frodo's age, 33. That makes 333, adding up to 9. And 111 added to 33 gives 144, the square of 12 (a number, while not prevalent in Tolkien's work, is very important in the Bible). I don't know what exactly can be inferred by this, but it is plain to see that Bilbo, and therefore Tolkien, thought it very significant indeed.

01-26-2003, 06:03 AM	#38
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Here are two links to other threads about Tolkien's numbers. I didn't find many at all using the search engine - thanks for starting the thread, Eruantalon! 5 Istari The Power of Nine The symbolism of 5 is better delved into on the second thread - it is seen as possibly representing the hand. 5 was definitely an important number to megalithic people for this reason, and it is safe to assume that it could have developed significance in the cultures of Arda. ~ 5 ~ The Five Istari may have been sent as the hand of the Valar, the hand being that part of the body which is most often used for action. The five hobbits who set out were similarly performing action. Five seemed to be the number (coincidentally perhaps) required to initiate the journey. There were apparently only five passengers to the west in the last chapter of LOTR - Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Frodo and Bilbo. These five were the chief instruments of the defeat of Sauron, at least in terms of LOTR. Aragorn is excluded because he needs to stay in Gondor, although he formed the fifth member of Frodo's company from Bree to Rivendell. On the subject of hands, it is surely significant that both Frodo and Sauron lose a finger. Frodo only loses his finger because he falls (not literally) at the end and claims the Ring. Perhaps this is some kind of punishment meted out, that both he and Sauron lose a digit through possession of the One Ring. Gollum loses much more than his finger in the Sammath Naur. This also led me to think that if Sauron put each of the Nazgûl's rings on his fingers, then before Isildur disfingered him, he would have had his hands full. This is a possible explanation for the Nine Nazgûl, although it (perhaps sensibly) doesn't allow for the rings of the elves or dwarves. This leads me to picture Sauron as some jewellery-wearing early day Don King, with Mike Tyson the evil Witch-King of Angmar. But wait, there's more... we have so far neglected the most obvious use of significant numbers, as used by Bilbo himself. He turns 111 at the same time that Frodo turns 33. 111 is a very odd number (quite apart from being the emergency number in NZ). It's product is 1, which is the only digit that it contains. Its sum is 3, which matches the two threes in Frodo's age, 33. That makes 333, adding up to 9. And 111 added to 33 gives 144, the square of 12 (a number, while not prevalent in Tolkien's work, is very important in the Bible). I don't know what exactly can be inferred by this, but it is plain to see that Bilbo, and therefore Tolkien, thought it very significant indeed. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.