[Kalimac]

Hello, Lush! Glad my last post was clear, sometimes I wonder when about that I'm writing this late at night.<P>Marilea, as it happens I'm also a knitter (not a very good one, but still working at it). I wasn't offended by that at all, don't worry about it.<P>We seem to be arguing across each other right now; your main points are (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Arwen's strong-and-feminine image from the book has been superseded by stereotypically masculine images of strength (sword etc) and that this by implication means the filmmakers are saying that traditional feminine images are inherently weak. Secondly, that the New Arwen is actually weaker than the Arwen in the book, and despite all her new trappings and her attitude she would cave into physical or emotional pressure sooner - false bravado. <P>For the first point all I can really say is that the book Arwen and the film Arwen are different people and that comparing them is apples and oranges. The film Arwen is sort of an alternative-universe version - no, Tolkien's Elves didn't send their women into open country on dangerous tracking assignments, but considering their circumstances (dwindling and under threat, like I said in my first post) they very plausibly could have, in fact Tolkien gives something of a model for that sort of thing later on with Eowyn. And if the book Elves had done that, the book Arwen would probably have been rather like the film Arwen; ridden a fast horse, dressed in warm clothes and carried something for self-defense. When the filmmakers gave Glorfindel's role to Arwen, for good or ill, they had to make her plausible; and sending anyone of either sex out on that sort of errand without stereotypically masculine things like a weapon would be incredibly foolish, and a foolish Elf is much harder to believe in than a female Elf with a sword. I honestly don't think the filmmakers were saying that stereotypically feminine things are weak by giving Arwen a sword, all they were trying to do was make her expanded role believable. And feminine strength gets its due once they're back in Rivendell; we're seeing Arwen in her home territory there and it becomes obvious that she was only wearing the sword out of necessity. She's very feminine now but no less strong.<P>As for false bravado - it's hard to comment on that because it's a fairly subjective term. Lush made the point that Arwen was obviously not a natural born killer, so if you mean that if she had actually tried to fight with the Nazgul she would have been beaten, I agree, no question. The "If you want him..." line (and yes, there have been better lines in cinematic history ) was a challenge that she could not back up, but on the other hand it did have the purpose and effect of luring the Nazgul into the water. Maybe if the movie Arwen was faced with a gun or a knife she would cave, despite her sword; it's really hard to tell what anyone would do in that particular situation until they're in it. <P>One more thing, though; I would like to be devil's advocate for a second and defend false bravado (in the sense of acting like you're stronger than you really are or feel yourself to be). Sometimes putting up a front like that can lead to the real thing, and I'm speaking from personal experience as well. I'm not the "will of adamant" sort of person; on some everyday issues I tend to like to give in for the sake of keeping the peace, which isn't the greatest habit. But one fine evening about two years ago under circumstances for I won't give the whole tedious background, I ended up in a train compartment on the Russian border being interrogated by four officials, all of whom had guns pointed at me. It only lasted a few hours, but while it lasted it was no help to think "well, they *probably* can't do anything serious to me." Afterwards when they let me go, of course, it seemed self-evident. Anyway, I flinched from the guns and they could tell, I'm sure; inside I was so terrified that I would have given them quite a lot just to go away. But for some reason - and stupidly enough it was probably because I felt embarrassed at the idea of giving so quickly like that - I acted as (politely) aggressive as I could and just insisted that I hadn't done anything, thank you very much, now would you let me go? And as it went on and I kept up my argument I actually could look at the guns without flinching; the false bravado was turning into something rather more real. Not to mention something pretty foolhardy too, now that I think about it. But in the end they got tired of it and let me go without my having to give over any of my money, which I'm pretty sure was what they were after in the first place. <P>OK, enough grandstanding. Sorry about that, I was just trying to show how I found that you can never tell how people will react, also that faking it can sometimes make it real.<P>I do apologize about the length of the post, and if you've gotten all the way to the bottom, thank you for reading . Please reply if you'd like! And now I'd better go to bed before my brain melts completely.