[Aratlithiel]

I hate to drag a matter from another thread over here and dirty up your nice, clean, new one, but I think we first must understand the nature of Eru before we can decide if redemption is possible.

Was the saga of the Ring - from it's forging to it's undoing - the will of Eru and part of his divine plan? If so, then ALL of these characters deserve redemption because they acted according to Eru's will and not their own.

However, if we're dealing with free choice here, we need to be a little more careful. I don't think we can make blanket assumptions about the Dunlendings, Haradrim, or any other group of people because we couldn't possibly look into each of their hearts and determine why they made the choices they did. Maybe some of them were born evil - or maybe some of them were just born dumb. I don't think anyone could (justly) be punished for not understanding what they were doing or the possible repercussions.

This leads us directly to Boromir. I've expounded at length on this subject before but suffice it to say that I don't believe Boromir understood the danger of the Ring until after his confrontation with Frodo and that (his subsequent understanding) in itself should warrant redemption. Again, we're assuming a just deity here.

Gollum - hmmm. That's a good one, but I'm going to start ducking whatever things will come flying at me when I say that I don't think Gollum (assuming free choice) deserves redemption. Gollum, more than anyone else, knew the dangers of the Ring yet chose over and over again to pursue it. Yes, the lure of it was overpowering and some may argue that he paid his dues in the 500 years he held it, but addicts to various substances have the same trouble, yet some of them choose to clean up and some do not. (Please - I'm not intimating that addicts deserve what they get...only using the example to illustrate a point. I do not take addiction lightly and do not judge those afflicted by it.) A very difficult choice, of course, but some have chosen that very difficult path and are therefore redeemed while those that remain addicted out of choice or weakness are not. Gollum was confronted with his choice time and time again and had every opportunity to redeem himself yet chose the Ring each and every time. I don't believe accidentally saving Middle-earth should redeem him since he did it with evil purpose in his heart.

I don't agree that Bill Ferny and Ted Sandyman did not have an opportunity to redeem themselves. The trouble in the Shire had been going on for some months during which time they had ample opportunity to repent. Of course they would have been afraid to do so (if that was what they wanted) and would have been punished but that's the price one pays for their redemption. But I don't think fear should be an excuse any more than it was at Nuremburg.

Wow, did this turn out long. Saucepan Man, I'm ready for those composition lessons anytime now.