[Knight of Gondor]

Willkill –<P>Just a few observations since you offered for argument and discussion on your objections.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Elendil was portrayed as a suicidal fool, when in the books he and Gil-Galad wound Sauron many times before finally being killed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have a bit of a point there, but at the same time, he was not suicidal, or a fool. It was a brave act, it just turned bad. Yes, I understand it differs from the book...but that doesn’t mean the wounds didn’t take place before!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"The power of the ring could not be undone", what the heck does that mean? In the books Sauron attacked too early not realizing that the Elves had become stronger while he was away, and he didnt count on such fierce resistance from the Men of Numenor. Sauron come out from Barad-Dur when he had no chance left at all, victory was assured when Sauron came out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was just a cinematic quote.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No mention that the Elven rings were made by Celebrindor, not Sauron, which just confsues the viewer as to why the Elves are almost untouched by their rings, while the 9 kings are now wraiths, and all 7 drawven ones are gone..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><I>Where</I> would be a good place to insert this particular fact? The prologue didn’t say that Sauron forged all of the Rings at all. And if they had tried to say it somewhere in the movie, it would be what I refer to as a “TTM”; using dialogue to convey story concepts to the audience that they wouldn’t actually need to tell the people they are talking to. (I call it TTM because of a book that used it all the time)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Isildur's end was cut short in the final version, not showing the part where the ring betrayed Isildur, which really helps show the evilness and "tricksyness" of the ring.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Peter Jackson’s heart lay in the extended edition. But Peter Jackson was not the be-all and end-all when it came down to final say...and though he didn’t like it, the studio or production company or whatever made him trim it down.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No Dwarves left the Shire with Bilbo on the night of his party, I wanted to see Dwarves!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, you didn’t see it, but there were dwarves hiding off-camera. :-) Come on! PJ had to make it as optimally awesome for all who watched it, or as near as he could come, and most movie goers (my parents included, probably) would go “huh?” if they saw Dwarves.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The rushing of Frodo's departure, in the bok it took 17 years, in the movie, a few minutes...not to mention almost the entire manner in which he escaped was either cut out or changed to an unrecognizable form..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, it’s a time issue. Can you imagine how much time it would take, even in theater time, for them to convey the fact that 17 years past? Besides, who said they <I>didn’t</I>? You saw Bilbo going away, Gandalf left for Gondor, researching, etc, the Black Riders leaving Minas Morgul, and so on. It COULD have been 17 years. But Frodo isn’t going to go “Well, Samwise, my somewhat drunk but loyal servant, what a lovely 17 years these have been since Bilbo left.” (An example of “TTM”, there)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Merry and Pippin suddenly show up in the fields with Frodo and Sam, without any hint that they are very good friends with Frodo, making the two young hobbit's choice to go join the fellowship even more irrational (if thats possible) and confusing...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, they knew they were good friends. “Merry, it’s Frodo!” “Hello, Frodo!” Yeah, a little disappointing that there wasn’t a conspiracy...some of the nobility in Merry and Pippin choosing to go along with Frodo was lost. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The way to Bree was way to short, I do believe that Tom Bombadil had no real pace in the movie, but still, it seems like just a stroll in the park to get to Bree...If maybe somehow they could of had the barrowdowns without tom bombadil, that would give an explaination to how Merry wounded the WiKi so badly, maybe Frodo could of saved the 3 hobbits from the Barrowwight, or something to that effect..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>People already complained about the walking that was already included in the movie, much less the books. If they had put more walking in to Bree, then others would complain of the too-boring walking scenes. PJ can’t please everyone. Besides, you should know that in movies, a large amount of walking, or time can take place without any indicator that it had. Barrow-Downs would have taken too long, and left more people going “HUH?”<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No poem about strider, "All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost" is an entire explaination of Strider in 1 sentance, not to mention it is easily one of the most memorable lines in all of LotR...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It’s a great line, and some of it was taken for Arwen’s raspy dissertation in Return of the King, but Gandalf did not leave that letter according to the movie, and all that other behind-the-scenes stuff didn’t happen with Barliman and such.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Weathertop was a disaster, not only do the black riders look weak, stupid and scared, but there is no mention of their fear of fire, and none of Frodo fighting back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sad that Frodo didn’t fight, I agree. He’s too much of a wimp in LotR, if you ask me. But they don’t look weak and stupid. If they do, it’s because you’re not there, not feeling the fear and terror of being in the presence of the Witchking. What did you want instead, a giant marionette? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Aragorn using another sword and a knife besides Anduril and not having Anduril be forged until RotK just got me mad, if Aragorn had the shards of Narsil at Weathertop in the movie, weathertop would not of been so horrible...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I’ve explained this several times before, but I agree with that change. Aragorn lived a rugged life for the sixty years or so that he wandered the Wild. He would not be able to have survived, carrying around a broken hilt of a sword! Plus, it makes more sense for the honorable heirloom of the house of Elendil to rest in the dignity of Rivendell.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The scene of Bill the Pony being left go at the gates of moria....they never showed the scene were they bought bill, so why have the scene were they let him go?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>More time. Everyone would get board of sitting around watching them buy a pony. “Big deal, so they buy a pony.” (Some might think) At least he was included!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Arwen calling the River to destroy the Nazgul just got me mad, the river is under the command of Lord Elrond, and none other...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I recall Gandalf and Glorfindal having something to do with it, but Arwen was just a pandering to feminists and people who wanted more girl action, without having to wait until Return of the King. That, and I think Liv Tyler wanted some extra screen time.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The scene of the gift giving was cut out of the final film, this cut I consider one of the most hurtful and wrong cuts that PJ made, not only does it explain the cloaks, Gimli's love for Galadrial, and a lot of other things later on in the trilogy, its just a great scene...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don’t recall any other expressions in regard to Gimli’s love for Galadriel. Again, I’ll reiterate, PJ really wanted the movie to make it to theaters as the Extended Edition. I think you should judge PJ based on the EE, and not what the studio made him submit as final for theaters.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Aragorn "letting" frodo go was one of the biggest mistakes PJ made in the first film, not only does it not go alnog with the story, but the involving of Aragorn in Frodos descision to leave just is very un Tolkien to me...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It works for me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The adition of the wild men attacking parts of Rohan in the begining, I dont care about any peasants getting killed, I care about orcs, Balrogs, Trolls and Nazgul being killed...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you ask me, you are a little inconsistent. You didn’t like the Nazgûl being battled, and yet you want more walking and pony-buying?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Eomer's "flight" from Rohan just got me mad, not only does it thouroughly mess up Helms Deep, but it doesnt fit with Eomer's character one bit...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It underscored how Grima was actually in charge of Rohan, pretty much.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Ents stalling...I mean dear god, the movie is more than 3 hours, and still a lot of important and relevent things were cut out, and PJ has the nerve to have the Ents say "no" at first...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, that’s a debatable scene. Perhaps PJ was making a subtle stab at the United Nations? <P>By the way, if you wouldn’t mind, please refrain from taking my Lord’s name in vain.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No mention of the Battles of the Isen, which once again cause Helms Deep to become an unTolkien mess, no mention of Erkenbrand, and no reason given why Theodred died...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Erkenbrand is one of various assorted characters which were excluded to leave more time. The Battles of the Isen was in the EE, so I rest my case with that...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Rohan's total lack of ANY army in TTT, in the book within minutes of Theoden's awakening, he had 1000 mounted riders of the Rohirrim outside his golden hall..not 300 old men and children...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>They showed a considerable presence once all told at Helm’s Deep, not to mention RotK.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The taking of the women and children to Helms Deep, if there already not enough women and children in the caves in the book, PJ has to make the riding of the Riders into a refugee train...once again...I dont care about women and children and the effect of war on them...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, a lot of other people DO care, and PJ wanted to get across that the innocent suffered in the oppression of Saruman. While on a massive scale of dark lords, Elves, men, orcs, etc., you have regular peasants, probably not too different from you and me, being forced into an alternate life because of Sauron.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Aragorn's close call....no reason for this, though the Warg riders were cool and you cant get made when extra fighting is thrown in, the "feigned death" of Aragorn just got me mad, I dont care if it gave PJ reason for the Arwen and Aragorn flashbacks, I didnt even like the flashbacks, which is my next point...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, any scene that had Arwen unnecessarily wasn’t an improvement, in my opinion, but that’s mostly personal bias against Liv Tyler. But I said it before, Aragorn’s near-death thing was just thrown in for fans like you and I who figured we knew every move before it was made. Likewise the Elves at Helm’s Deep (more or less).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The love story between Arwen and Aragorn was just plain awful, though I do know that Tolkien did not give PJ much to work with, PJ eally could of done a better job in TTT and RotK, (The story in FotR was alright)..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I just disapprove of Liv Tyler’s portrayal of Arwen anyway, but I’m not really complaining about it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Elrond's "Im a stubborn and overprotective father, forget my goal to return a king to the throne of Gondor, forget about saving humans and middle erath from the clutches of Sauron, I want my daughter to sail of the sea with me and thats final"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He was admittedly a little more passive in the books, but he was NOT forgoing his role to aid the future King of Gondor. He made that large ride to Dunharrow, after all.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No extra men at Helms Deep before the battle started, no mention of the scattering of Erkerbrand's men, instead it was replace by ELVES and a runaway son, probably the worst part of TTT...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Runaway son? Do you mean Éomer? First, he’s a nephew, and second, he didn’t run away, he was banished. People have already raised objections to the Elves, so I won’t go there. It departed from the book, yeah. But it was still cool.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>(Here is how the battle should of gone...early in the movie sohuld of been the battle of the Isen, Theodred killed, eomer runs into the 3 hunters, eomer comes back and is thrown in jail, the riders of rohan leave to make open battle, find the army is destoryed, make for helms deep, gandalf goes and reunites the army and comes at dawn, much less annouced, gimli sohuld of ben in the caves with eomer, theoden and aragorn should of had more people riding out with him, and not as much out of desperation, no elves, no giant explosives, and no 300 vs. 10000 stuff)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think most of the Helm’s Deep material is beautiful. The ride out the causeway is quite similar to the books...it was desperation, yet reckless heroism. My apologies, but I don’t think anyone could scarce have done it better.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Faramir...I dont are that his character was much better in the EE, I went to the theaters and paided 10 many times to watch the final version, and im angry...Faramir was supposed to be portrayed as a wise strong, fair and gentle man who even when the ring of power is within his grasp, refuses it and lets Frodo and Sam go....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Which he did. Granted, he hesitated first, wishing for once to be able to please his father. In the EE, you can understand those emotions much better. Still a detraction from the bok<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Frodo Sam and Gollum going to Osgiliarth, it just made no sense...by then Faramir should of let them go and just gone there with his men, I have no problem with a bit of a cameo by osgiliarth in the movie, but Frodo and Sam there just got me mad (see above)..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry you didn’t like it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No Huorns....now that got me mad...there is no way every last single orc was killed by the Rohirrim, and thats why the Hourns needed to be there, they were the cleanup crew, they were what truely destroyed Saruman's army..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Two words, my friend: extended edition.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No talking with Saruman, no throwing of the palatir, no tempting both the king and Gandalf...nothing...at first I tohught it would of been taken care of in RotK, but that was not the case, and so now it is obvious to me that it should of been taken care of, and somehow PJ should of found the room in his movie for it...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay, now six words: Return of the King Extended Edition.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No more shots of the actors children, its bad enough to see random extras cower in fear, but when its a cameo from a child or spouse of an actor, it just gets me mad, not to meantion a good 10 minutes were spent on shots of the helpless women and children..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Willkill, this movie was about more than just ugly orcs and beautiful women. It was a tremendous study in the human qualities such as mercy, justice, bravery, heroism, endurance, perseverance and so on. I think at some points you expect too much, and at others, you expect too little.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Nothing, absolutly nothing about Saruman, which wouldnt be so bad if he was taken care of in TTT, but the cutting out of one of the major bad guys without any attempt at an explaination just makes me mad...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>While I saw the point of removing him (it would feel too much like finishing old business...yet at the same time, since they went ahead to Isengard, they may as well have taken care of Saruman anyway), I agree it’s a poor lot for Lee and Dourif. Those same old words, though: Extended edition.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Smeagols past was an ok flashback, but it was too long and too annoying, I would of just like a couple minute explaination, but I guess PJ wanted to make the viewers pity Gollum less...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thought it went on a <I>little</I> long myself. But still, PJ needed some exposition to intro RotK. And yes, they wanted to give you a feel for Gollum. He let his bad side take over, but he did have a good side.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gollum turning Frodo against Sam was just unneccesary and bad, there was no need for it, and not only that, it got me mad, I already hated gollum, no need for me to hate him more...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You hated him because you read the books. For the rest of America, there was the turning of Frodo against Sam.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The endless staircase was WAY too close to minas morgul...but thats a small thing, but you would think someone would of seen the 3 small figures climbing up it...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I didn’t think about that, but it’s a good point.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Theoden's reluctanse to go to the aid of Gondor, didnt make any sense, and this coupled with the amazing army that appears out of no where just got me mad, if they only had 300 men at Helms Deep, they should be riding to gondor with about 15 men...I really hate the excuse of "the other men were far away"...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It didn’t make too much sense for Théoden to be reluctant, but only because he immediately prepared for Rohan’s answer without hesitation. But if you recall, Théoden was issuing orders for all the men in the outlying villages to issue forth to join the army. It took a few days for them all to muster at Dunharrow.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No Rangers, no songs of Elrond, no nothing, making legolas, Aragorn and gimli brave the paths of the dead all by themselves, without horses...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sad, but still probably necessary.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The stupid green people attacking the orcs and saving the day, the dead were supposed to attack the corsairs and then go...and though 30 rangers attacking the orcs wouldnt be too exciting, maybe PJ could of had some of the besieged gondorians come with the rangers and attack...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It <I>did</I> seem a little odd for the Dead to swarm all seven levels of Gondor, or at least the first three. Still doesn’t bother me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No Prince Emrahil....and htis fact hurts me deep inside, probably because Prince Imrahil is by far the coolest character in the entire LotR trilogy...and I was looking forward to seeing the three warriors (eomer, imrahil and aragorn) meet in the middle of the battle after attacking on 3 different sides..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is also very little mentioned in the trilogy (books). I know my parents have enough trouble with all the different names without characters that, when it all boils down, aren’t truly desperately needed.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Denethor was AWFUL absolutly aful, I mean dear god, I dont know if it is the actor of the role that was written for him, but every little thing he did ****ed me off, first with hi s rambling until gandalf hit him, then with his eating, and then the pyre..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You just angered the almighty princess of Denethorism: Meela! Back, girl, back! (And again, if you wouldn’t mind watching the language)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gandalf's dealing with denethor was almost as bad, first with the knocking him on the head, and then actually murdering him by pushing him into the flame...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with you to some extent on this.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gimli holding the crown....just plain dumb..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Missed that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Legolas' oliphante surfing attack, the attack was fine, he just looked like a dumbass as he came down from the oliphante..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dude? Language? <P>We both know that stunt was just put in there to expound on the Elven coolness that eeks from every pore of Legolas’s Elven hair. A little overmuch? Maybe, but it was cool. And besides, 200,000 delighted girls versus one unhappy dissenter? *Strokes chin* PJ had quite a choice before him, I must say.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No house of healing....one of the most importante parts of the movie cut out...no real reason other than Aragorns victory for him to get the crown...though throughout the movie it never is actually said that he is not the real king of gondor..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe I should just start chanting EE, EE, EE....<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The love story and elrond again, I didnt think it was possible , but the flashbacks and the scenes with arwen were worse than in TTT...not to mention Elrond riding all the way into rohan just to deliver a sword just shows that PJ forgot about Anduril for a while and finally remembered he needed to put it in...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you truly believe PJ forgot Andúril, then you honestly understand nothing of the movie business. I alone understand very little myself, but these weren’t made one right after the other, but all together.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No faramir and eowyn love story, that got me really mad, because not only is it a great side story, it sorta brings closure to the story involving gondor and rohan, and giving way for the rest of the story to focus on hobbits..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, kind of a shame.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No mention of the wild men leading the rohirrim through the hills...this I thought was pretty bad, not only because it made PJ change denethor's belief from "rohan will be late" to "rohan will not come"...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There was a discussion on that topic elsewhere. There was an actor originally cast for Ghan-buri-Ghan, but I think either that concept was abandoned, or it might be a surprise extra for the EE. Again, when you boil it all down, I think it wasn’t exceedingly necessary — Théoden knows the way to Gondor. And I think it was a movie device for you to almost forget about Rohan’s coming until that glorious moment when the horn sounded. I might just as well complain that Return of the King BOOK left Aragorn too long after the Stone of Erech!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Celeborn boarding the boat into the west, just a useless change from the book, and also I didnt like how few people boarded the boat, I mean its not like any one of them knows how to sail in a boat, I was under the impression that a very large host of elves sailed west at the same time..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But at the same time, Bilbo, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, and Gandalf all climbed on board the ship, and then you couldn’t see them any more so you could concentrate on Frodo. Maybe the others were out of view. Again, probably another effort not to confuse poor perplexed mainstream movie-goers with nameless faces that they don’t know whether or not they are someone to keep track of.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No Cirdan...now thats just mean, I wanted to see Cirdan...you dont see a bearded elf every day...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*Cocks eyebrow* I did not remember Cirdan having a beard. But you could see the dude, in the prologue. And I believe he was there in the shot at the end, standing by. But no beard...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hardly any people were at the attack on the black gate, in the book it was 6000, in the movie it look like less than 1000...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That’s only what it looked like.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gollum fighting an invisible Frodo just looked too strange, and not to mention Frodo pushing gollum off the edge got me angry, he just lost of a finger, he was in no condition to fight gollum for the ring...it should of been a shorter struggle and gollum should of fallen off...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thought the invisible struggle looked just a little strange, but then again, which real-life video of invisible man versus emaciated hobbit are you comparing it to? And unless you have had your finger bitten off and know for sure that Frodo would not be able to get up and go after what was fast becoming <I>Frodo’s</I> Precious, especially with the extra strength that came from having Gollum steal it back, then you might not want to make that judgment. Yep, it was departing from the book. Again, it was to make you think Frodo had fallen, if only for a second. Though I’ll agree with the irony of Sam telling Frodo to “let it go, Mr. Frodo! Let it go!” in reference to the Ring, then telling him “Don’t you DARE let go” minutes later. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But all together, it wasnt that bad, and I still will be buying the DVD and EE of RotK, just because im a materialistic and hopelussly addicted tolkien fan...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with you on some of these issues, but I don’t see the need to raise such an objection about it. The movies were still extremely, exceedingly, spectacularly, exceptionally, extraordinarily, tremendously, enormously, remarkably, outstandingly, terrifically, marvelously, stupendously, staggeringly, dazzlingly, wonderfully done, and I think Peter Jackson should be commended by us, not chastised. He did a great job, and deserves a lot of credit for the massive amounts of work he put in. <P>As I said before, it was his sole responsibility to make Lord of the Rings function on so many different levels. Each of us takes something different from the books, each of us has his or her own imaginings...each of us has created an intimate sub-interpretation of it. He had to do justice to as many of them as he could, while still pleasing Hollywood critics, production executives, studio representatives, Tolkien purists, scholars, teachers, professors, and still make it great for mainstream America. Yeah, it wasn’t perfect. None of us are, and none of us could expect it to be. In all due respect, you could not have done better, indeed most would have done much worse. (Probably have Boromir’s lust extend to Arwen or something, and not just the Ring)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>PS, Feel free to comment or argue about any of the kazillion problems I have with the movies, ill be happy to destroy your arguement and then insult your mother =)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh yeah, I forgot. Your mother is an uruk.