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Bill Ferny · 11-09-2002, 10:34 AM

Maybe this kind of speculation is better suited in “The Books” section, but to me there seems to be a parallel between Gríma and Éowyn.<P>The line quoted by Diamond18 could be a single throw away line, but I lean more toward it being a line that reveals something important about Gríma’s psychology. He’s not an orc, he is capable of making moral choice. So something in his psyche makes it easier for Saruman to twist him to his will. Throughout the story Gríma is portrayed as weak, but also as a co-dependent. His co-dependency probably hinges on his physical shortcomings. He needs recognition, attention, and acceptance, but lives among a warrior people. He can not stand on his own physically or mentally among these people. He is, therefore, jealous, not hateful, of the people of Rohan. Part of him, the surface part, might desire Éowyn because he wants to get his rocks off, but deeper, I think, he wants to be loved in order to find acceptance from the people that which he is so intensely jealous. If Saruman can give him the means to force this love and acceptance, then so be it, a man like him will take it anyway he can get it.<P>As I pointed out on Lush’s parallel thread in “The Books”, Éowyn desires not to love, but to be loved by Aragorn in order to capture for herself and her people the greatness embodied by Aragorn. In a way she is co-dependent as well, and definitely jealous of those who ride to battle. She doesn’t like her appointed duties, and sees these duties as the result of her gender. She perceives her gender as a weakness. Unlike Gríma, though, she is not weak, but strong, noble and great. She already possesses the qualities that Aragorn embodies, and Faramir helps her to see this. She comes to realize that she doesn’t need the love of Aragorn, or any man for that matter, to be noble.<P>In the end Gríma realizes that he has been betrayed and forsook by Saruman. Saruman was never his friend; Saruman never accepted him or cared about him. Gríma realized that Saruman had used him, twisted him, and made him into a cannibalistic animal (which was one thing that he, himself, said he never wanted to be). I pity Wormtongue more than hate him. Think of it this way: what if Gandalf, and not Saruman, had gotten a hold of Gríma in the beginning?

11-09-2002, 10:34 AM	#42
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Maybe this kind of speculation is better suited in “The Books” section, but to me there seems to be a parallel between Gríma and Éowyn.<P>The line quoted by Diamond18 could be a single throw away line, but I lean more toward it being a line that reveals something important about Gríma’s psychology. He’s not an orc, he is capable of making moral choice. So something in his psyche makes it easier for Saruman to twist him to his will. Throughout the story Gríma is portrayed as weak, but also as a co-dependent. His co-dependency probably hinges on his physical shortcomings. He needs recognition, attention, and acceptance, but lives among a warrior people. He can not stand on his own physically or mentally among these people. He is, therefore, jealous, not hateful, of the people of Rohan. Part of him, the surface part, might desire Éowyn because he wants to get his rocks off, but deeper, I think, he wants to be loved in order to find acceptance from the people that which he is so intensely jealous. If Saruman can give him the means to force this love and acceptance, then so be it, a man like him will take it anyway he can get it.<P>As I pointed out on Lush’s parallel thread in “The Books”, Éowyn desires not to love, but to be loved by Aragorn in order to capture for herself and her people the greatness embodied by Aragorn. In a way she is co-dependent as well, and definitely jealous of those who ride to battle. She doesn’t like her appointed duties, and sees these duties as the result of her gender. She perceives her gender as a weakness. Unlike Gríma, though, she is not weak, but strong, noble and great. She already possesses the qualities that Aragorn embodies, and Faramir helps her to see this. She comes to realize that she doesn’t need the love of Aragorn, or any man for that matter, to be noble.<P>In the end Gríma realizes that he has been betrayed and forsook by Saruman. Saruman was never his friend; Saruman never accepted him or cared about him. Gríma realized that Saruman had used him, twisted him, and made him into a cannibalistic animal (which was one thing that he, himself, said he never wanted to be). I pity Wormtongue more than hate him. Think of it this way: what if Gandalf, and not Saruman, had gotten a hold of Gríma in the beginning? __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.