[Imladris]

Oh, how I love a good debate! Except when my stupid computer freezes and I loose my post in progress…<P>Okay. Lindil asked me this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Just what Christianness did you see in the 'LotR' movies? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Remember that scene in Moria, and Gandalf is telling Frodo not to be too eager to deal out death and judgment because the very wise cannot see all ends and that he was meant to have the Ring? These are very clear statements of the sovereignty of a God (even PJ admitted along with Fran and the others that this was a very Christian statement on the commentary of the EE). <BR>As for you’ve insulting statement:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Perhaps it was Shadowfax the sentient horse killing Denethor? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I fail to see how that is even remotely concerned with Christianity. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Legendarium is built far more upon references and recastings of pagan literature than any direct reliance on Christianity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am quite aware that Tolkien based many of his writings upon Norse myths (Beowulf and others), but that does not mean that he included the numerous pagan gods, as you implied here: I have only read the first chapter of the Sil, but I have read from others on this very forum that there is only one God in Tolkien’s world: Illuvitar and that his Valar are the angels. That in and of itself (as well as the description of the creation of ME) is Christian. Also, Tolkien was a very faithful Catholic, so why would he promote pagan gods?<P><BR>Throughout the entire books and movies, there are definite Christian themes that PJ portrays in the movies. The themes of self sacrifice (primary in the books) are all portrayed in the movies. The fight to destroy evil at whatever cost is also portrayed in the movies as it was in the books. All of these are Christian themes, and all of them were portrayed in the movies. I did not say that “Christ” or that the “God of the Bible” were referred to in either books or movies. I said that the “Christian-ness” of the books were faithfully portrayed on screen. I hope I have proved my point. <P>As for the lack of Faramir’s prayer I am at a loss to know what you are referring to. The only thing that I find is this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Before they ate, Faramir and all his men turned and faced west in a moment of silence. … “So we always do,” he said, as they sat down: “we look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That doesn’t seem like a prayer to me. Also, very confusing to portray on film.<P>Prayer: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, if there wasn’t a prayer in the book, why should there be one in the film.<P>As for Gandalf’s reference of the Valar at the coronation, we don’t know if that will be in there since the EE hasn’t come out yet. I notice that you decided to ignore Arwen’s references to the Valar. <P>You see, the clincher with me is this: in the Matrix, there are references to Christianity, ancient mythology, Tauism (sp?), Buddhism, and a bunch of others that I don't even recognize. In LotR, there is only one thing they are promoting: Christianity and its themes. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So I really do not see any way that the movie'LotR' is any more Christian than the Matrix. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I never said that. I said that LotR knows which religion it is promoting. Basically, Matrix and LotR have the same themes: a Christ figure saving their people, self sacrifice, etc. But LotR does not have the mish mash that Matrix has and that mish mash cancels out the Christianity. <P>Mods, I ask your forgiveness if this is off topic. However, he asked me to prove the Christianity of the film to you and the fact that this film knows which religion it is promoting in contrast to the Matrix and I hope I have.<p>[ 4:18 AM December 28, 2003: Message edited by: Imladris ]