The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Did I just see 'Gandalf' throw 'Denethor' into the pyre?

**lindil** · 12-19-2003, 07:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> if Peter meant it to look like that, I think that we haven't been giving him enough credit for his brilliance. Tolkien took Denethor out of the picture because Aragorn HAD to become King of Gondor. Now, if we change that "realization" to an idea in Gandalf's mind, wouldn't he have "nudged" Denethor into the pyre? Gandalf knew that Denethor's madness was too far gone for him to listen to any reason about Aragorn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am sorry but the fact you have uncovered what may be PJ's motives make the scene all the more distressing.Tell me do you really think the Isari were sent to murder heads of state they did not agree with to put their own candidates on the throne? It may be considered business as usual by the CIA, but it strays completely beyond the bounds of the morality that JRRT cerated for Gandalf in particular and the Istari in general. In short if it was anything other than an accident it was murder, and not self-defense.Yes, Aragorn has a destiny to become King, but in the book, it is clear that we do not know how that will happen, all the characters in the know [excepting Denethor], simply trust that it will work out as it should as long as the throne itself is not pursued fopr it's own sake.Aragorn becomes King [and marries Arwen] because he was destined for it and because he sacrifices virtually his whole life to do his duty, which renders him fit for the Kingship. Gandalf conviently trying to 'nudge' Denethor out of the way is a complete misunderstanding of the role of the Istari. I truly hope this is not the case, but with PJ's clear penchant for re-writing Tolkien and 'improving' upon his characterizations, i suppose little is beyond him.The more I reflect on RotK, the less desire I have to see it again. Although I will give it another go come ext RotK time I am sure.[ 8:11 PM December 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

12-19-2003, 07:06 PM	#20
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> if Peter meant it to look like that, I think that we haven't been giving him enough credit for his brilliance. Tolkien took Denethor out of the picture because Aragorn HAD to become King of Gondor. Now, if we change that "realization" to an idea in Gandalf's mind, wouldn't he have "nudged" Denethor into the pyre? Gandalf knew that Denethor's madness was too far gone for him to listen to any reason about Aragorn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am sorry but the fact you have uncovered what may be PJ's motives make the scene all the more distressing.<P>Tell me do you really think the Isari were sent to murder heads of state they did not agree with to put their own candidates on the throne? It may be considered business as usual by the CIA, but it strays completely beyond the bounds of the morality that JRRT cerated for Gandalf in particular and the Istari in general. In short if it was anything other than an accident it was murder, and not self-defense.<P>Yes, Aragorn has a destiny to become King, but in the book, it is clear that we do not know how that will happen, all the characters in the know [excepting Denethor], simply trust that it will work out as it should as long as the throne itself is not pursued fopr it's own sake.<P>Aragorn becomes King [and marries Arwen] because he was destined for it and because he sacrifices virtually his whole life to do his duty, which renders him fit for the Kingship. <P>Gandalf conviently trying to 'nudge' Denethor out of the way is a complete misunderstanding of the role of the Istari. I truly hope this is not the case, but with PJ's clear penchant for re-writing Tolkien and 'improving' upon his characterizations, i suppose little is beyond him.<P>The more I reflect on RotK, the less desire I have to see it again. Although I will give it another go come ext RotK time I am sure.<p>[ 8:11 PM December 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.