[Kuruharan]

I'm afraid that you do not understand what I mean.

I suppose Kuruharan and I will have differing opinions on how justified this fear was in the case of anyone but Gandalf.

You and Tolkien have differing opinions on the matter as well. I leave it to your reasoning to decide who has the strongest grasp on the inner workings of the story.

I'm not talking about what the characters themselves believed about the Ring and what was happening. I would be the first to declare that Sauron was petrified by the thought of someone taking the Ring and using it against him. I am talking about what Tolkien said.

If Aragorn couldn't possibly use the Ring without it falling back into Sauron's hands, and couldn't possibly do any serious damage to Sauron without the Ring, then what does Sauron have to be scared of?

As I have said before in this thread, and will have to say again (in this very post no less), that what the characters know and what Tolkien knows are two different things. I am talking (and have been talking throughout) about what Tolkien knew. Tolkien specifically denied, by name, that Aragorn could have defeated Sauron in this manner. Sauron however did not know that this was in the mind of his sub-creator or he might have been a more relaxed, more easy-going Dark Lord. A kinder, gentler, less paranoid Dark Lord. Well, maybe just more relaxed.

Elrond state that if the Wise were to take the Ring, they would defeat Sauron

I refer you to my answers above regarding what Tolkien knew vs. what his characters knew.

Well, if Sauron wasn't worried, he should have been. The Ring was not able to protect itself from destruction, and Sauron was not able to retrieve it. All he could do sit on the edge of his throne and hope his lackys got there in time to recapture it.

I did not say that Sauron was not worried. However, only the most freakish divine intervention could have destroyed the Ring at that point. Without even intending it (apparently) Sauron protected the only place in the world where the Ring could be destroyed about as thoroughly as possible. It was physically difficult to get to, giving the Ring plenty of time to break the will of the Bearer, which it did. Then at the Crack of Doom, Sauron's power was stronger there than any other place (with the likely exception of his direct physical presence). By that point the Ringbearer, any Ringbearer I fancy, would be unable to destroy the Ring because they would no longer want to, pretty effective don't you think?

The only way the Ring could be destroyed at that moment is if 1) Frodo had the highly unlikely urge to throw himself into the Crack of Doom 2) the person along with the Ringbearer pushes the Ringbearer into the Crack of Doom, however for a variety of reasons this would be unlikely. And finally you have option 3) a freakish piece of divine intervention, not to be expected in the usual course of events (or even at all), even though this is the way that it played out.

However, as I said above, this was all unintentional. Until the moment he realized what was going on, he could not conceive of anyone wanting to destroy his Ring. Ironically, if it were not for Gollum, the exact moment that he found out the plan he was suddenly safer than at any time since the Last Alliance because the Ringbearer had claimed the Ring and would not destroy it, and was utterly incapable of keeping Sauron from reclaiming it. However, Sauron probably did not have time to think all this through.

And while we're at it; let's harken back to The Hobbit. If the Ring was trying to escape from Gollum, why did it just lie there and let a schmuck like Bilbo pick it up? If it had been my Ring, I would have "programmed" it to roll across Middle-earth right on back to Mordor.

Getting back to those earlier physiological problems I talked about in my earlier post, the Ring was after all just a ring. It did not have arms and legs or any ability to move on its own. It needed somebody to carry it. It could work on the will of the Bearer, but it could not move on its own. It was just a ring.

And before there are any remarks about giving it arms and legs, I’d like to say that then it would not really be a ring anymore, would it?

[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]