Ok Heren, (if Ithat's not overly familiar
)
Responses:
1:Elves and Men are in themselves the change in Music. The mere fact of their existence is change in itself.
(response)I wouldn't call them 'changes in the Music' as at the point they appeared the Music was still coming into being - so the Children are no more 'changes' than anything else in the Music. the kind of changes I'm talking about are changes that occur in Arda, after the Creation.
2. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction made by Elves (like, hey, this oboe theme is more to my taste than that fiddle, let us follow it). They make their decisions according to their own wisdom, which is measured against standards equal for both Men and Elves. (see quote above)
3. There is no textual evidence of Valar conscious distinction after the Music is over. It is stated they 'just' sang along, and only after the were shown the vision, with a kind of an eye-opener the knew what they were singing was the World. Afterwards, they, just as elves and men, act according to their own wisdom (for instance, when Aule makes dwarves, or when Iavanna asks for Ents, realisation of "it must have been part of my song all along" comes only after the deed itself)
(r)(Taken together)
These distinctions would not have to be 'conscious' in any way, we would be talking about something along the lines of Jung's archetypes - pre-existing patterns of thought & behaviour, which would push the beings one way or the other in an attempt to bring into manifestation the themes of the Music. They would all, Valar, Maiar & Elves have a degree of freedom of thought & action in trying to manifest those unconscious themes. But they are
not attempting to manifest any new themes, merely to actualise the ones already sung in eternity.
4. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction by Men, or aknowledging something like "oh, some drum solo would suit in this score nicely", they equally act according to their own wisdom
(r)Of course, but they are not bound by the Themes already sung, so there is a degree of freedom of action for them which the other races do not posess. To quote from Flieger (Splintered Light p52) 'Beyond this 'gift' (ie Death) Tolkien through his God figure has conferred another power on Mankind: the virtue to 'shape their life' beyond the creational design of the Music 'which is as fate to all things else'. In bestowing this capability on mortals while withholding it from the immortal Elves, Tolkien has deliberately introduced a paradox, a world guided by both fate & free will, thus increasing the tension inherent in intersecting lives & their possible effect on one another & on events...A possible distinction between them (Elves & Men) may be that Men are given the power to
act beyond the Music (that is, to alter external events or circumstances), while Elves, though bound by the Music, have the freedom to make internal choices, to alter some attitude toward themselves of other creatures of Eru. They may have power over their own natures, though not over external happenings.'
6. It is stated that Man and Elves are brethren, (even bodily the same, so the intercourse brings children), the only difference is made by Gift of Eru - i.e. Death, which frees Men from the confines of the world. i.e, inverting the statement, while they are alive, they are equally bound by confines of the world as elves are
(r)No, its clearly stated that Men have the freedom to act outside the Music, 'which is as fate to all things else'
as well as the gift of Death.
7. Eru is stated to be the cause, and all else consequence. In case Men were able of bringing new things into being, the maxim is inverted (for instance, in case of Numenor), and Men are cause and Eru consequence, which is likewise never backed up by textual evidence (and, as far as my judgement reaches, impossible to be put into "consciously so [Christian- H-I] in the revision" piece of work
(r)Not at all. Eru has final say in any changes men attempt to initiate. "None may change the Music in his despite'', but he will permit change in certain circumstances, & so is always in control. In a sense men's choices are like 'offerings' to Eru, to be accepted or rejected - & this would still be the case even if Eru from his position 'outside' time, in Eternity, already knew what men would offer & what his decision would be. His omniscience does not negate men's freedom - knowledge is
not control or power. Eru may know what will happen, & what men will 'offer' him, but he's not making those things happen, merely observing that they happen, & then making a decision on whether to accept them or not. So, both Eru & Men are free agents.
On to Magic
1. It is stated the all matter is Arda is Marred, for Morgoth have put forward part of his will into it. Therefore, all the incarnates have their Nature tainted from the very beginning of their existence
(r) I wouldn't agree - their hroa may be marred, but their fea is not, as it is not of the matter of Arda, but proceeds from Eru, & we can't find any evidence that Morgoth infected or corrupted the nature of Eru.
2. Both kindreds of Children (Elves and Man) have committed Original Sin in the dawn of their history, which affected their Nature in the drastic way making it even less perfect to start with then it would have been if merely tainted by Morgoth element in its matter
(r) I think 'original sin' is misleading, in that neither race 'originally' defied Eru or went against any commandment of his. Some defied the Valar(Elves), or turned to Morgoth (Men), but this is not the case for
all members of either race, unlike with Adam & Eve, whose 'sin' is passed down to all their decendents. Those who did 'sin' were certainly affected in a profound way, but this does not make them corrupt, as they can still choose between the themes (Elves), or make moral choices & perform moral actions (Men). The Morgoth 'element does not corrupt their essential spiritual nature, which originates with Eru, & is therefore incorruptible by any outside force - though the individual may corrupt themselves.
3. If by Nature you meant their souls only, it is to be added that both elves and men percieved their true nature as union of the two (body (hroa) and soul (fëa)), and the body is not perfect to begin with
(r)But the Hroa is neither rational nor intelligent, & is directed by the Fea.
4 Not incarnate beings (such as Valar and Maiar), which do not have tainted bodies to begin with, so, it is to be assumed, their nature is perfect, are capable of becoming Evil. If their Nature be dominant factor of their actions, that would have been impossible. Therefore, again, what defines the being as good or evil, is its actions as measured agains standard of Good and Evil (given by Eru), and such a measurement is not nature in itself, but act of will.
(r) no, because the contending themes within the Music pre-exist the manifestation of Arda, so each being, incarnate or not, divine or not, can choose which themes to attempt to actualise within Arda. They choose, but except for men, they cannot change or 'offer' up new possibilities.