[The Saucepan Man]

Davem

My problem in so far as coming to an agreement as to what Truth is, in an attempt to reach some kind of common ground, is that I cannot 'translate' my conceptions of Truth, Joy, etc into terms which would fit your world view, at least not without sacrificing what I mean by them, in order to make them 'fit' - & if I could, we wouldn't really be debating on common ground

What I was trying to say in my last post was that I do not see it as necessary to reach agreement on whether Truth exists and, if so, what it is, to meaningfully discuss our reactions as readers to Tolkien’s works.

OK, let me adopt H-I’s approach and try out an analogy here. It may not work, but let me try it anyway. Davem, say that you and I are looking at a sheet of opaque glass set in a wall. On the glass there are beautiful, beguiling patterns that shift and change in the light reflected on them from our side of the wall. You believe that the patterns are created by some sort of projector on the other side of the wall. I, on the other hand, believe that there is nothing beyond the wall and that the patterns naturally occur in the sheet of glass. We both accept that we cannot meaningfully discuss the source of the patterns, since we will never agree on the issue. Can we not still discuss the patterns themselves and our personal reactions to them, and perhaps even how they are affected by the light from our side of the wall?

In other words, can we not agree to disagree on the nature and existence of Truth and discuss what you would call glimpses of the Truth and I would call the themes, concepts and values that I derive from Tolkien’s works? It is here that I think that we would find a good deal of common ground.

So, how can we discuss the meaning & purpose of Tolkien's writing if the ground of our discussion doesn't include those things as 'realities', given that Tolkien himself saw them so.

I think that we can discuss the meaning that we each see as readers in Tolkien’s writing without reaching agreement on Truth. I agree that in order to discuss its purpose (ie Tolkien’s intentions), I would have to accept his belief in Truth, even though I may not believe it for myself. But isn’t that what you are saying with your example of Jung’s patient who believed that she had been to the moon? Clearly he could not have believed that she had actually made such a journey, but he accepted her belief that she had for the purposes of the analysis.

What I'm saying is, whether you believe in such things or not, if you wish to understand Tolkien's works, you have to behave as if they're real.

I’m not so sure that me behaving as if Truth is real is much different from my accepting Tolkien’s belief that it is real. Or, indeed, my accepting your belief that it is real. But then again, even if Truth were to exist and we are, as you say, all looking at it “as if through a glass darkly”, then won’t we all see slightly different things? Can any of us ever really fully understand what it was that Tolkien was trying to achieve, regardless of whether we actually believe in the Truth or are simply accepting his belief in it?

I have to say that you & SpM seem to get het up at claims that you are missing something, almost as if you're 'demanding' that I, or Helen, or H-I should 'reveal' the 'secret' to you, or stop implying that there is such a 'secret' … So, here we are, us saying Truth exists, you denying it exists, but demanding that we tell you what it is anyway. If you don't feel you're missing out on anything why do you keep asking us to tell you what you're missing out on?

The only reason that I object to claims that I am missing something is that it suggests that you are without question right and that I am without question wrong. I don’t believe that I am wrong. Nor do I believe that you are wrong. I simply believe that we are both looking at matters differently, and that the way we each approach the issue is right for us. I have explained in my last post why I felt it necessary to try to understand what you meant by Truth. But I think that I have sufficient understanding of what you mean now to be able discuss it (without the need for quote marks ), even though I may not believe it myself.

You are demanding too much of me, I'm afraid, & I'm stuck. I can't give up on Truth & expect to get anywhere, because that's where Tolkien, imo, is trying to take me.

Now, about those patterns …