<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Pile o' Bones
Posts: 24</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Kings
So, if
The Silmarillion won't serve we're just going to jump around from text to text? I'll accept going forward, but not going back. Since you've jumped to
The Peoples of Middle-earth I insist we stay there, or go back to
The Silmarillion.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Quothe Michael Martinez:
Finfgolfin did not claim any kingship upon his father's death.
-------------------------------------------
"(after Morgoth had contived the murder of Finwe) Feanor was deprived of the leadership, and the greater part of the Noldor who forsook Valinor marched under the command of Fingolfin, the eldest son of Indis ... and in spite of the enmity between him and Feanor he joined with full will in the rebellion and the exile, though he continued to claim the kingship of all the Noldor."
PoME.<hr></blockquote>
Which Christopher points out is in conflict with what is written in "the final story" (on page 361 in end note 32 -- references are to "The Shibboleth of Feanor" unless otherwise stated):
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> [It is said in the text at this point that Fingolfin claimed to be 'the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe', and the same was said in the essay proper (p. 336). All the texts agree that after the banishment of Feanor from Tirion, and the departure of Finwe with him to Formenos, Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion; and it was said in the
Quenta Silmarillion (see IV.95), V.235) that afterwards, when the Flight of the Noldor began, those of Tirion 'would not now renounce the kingship of Fingolfin'. On the other hand, in the final story of the events leading to the Flight, when Feanor and Fingolfin had become half-brothers, they were reconciled 'in word' before the throne of Manwe at the fateful festival; and in that reconciliation Fingolfin said to Feanor: 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow' (see X.197, 287).]<hr></blockquote>
The note follows on the text where Tolkien wrote:
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> ...Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwe to Nolofinwe before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe, and so enraqed Feanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships. The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth. The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest.<hr></blockquote>
So there are some serious problems for your case here if you're going to insist on using the Shibboleth as a basis for your argument.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Quote:
The divisions of the Noldor appear to derive from Feanor's own actions and choices.
---------------------------------------------
Refer to quote in above post.<hr></blockquote>
Which has nothing to do with the point I made.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Quote:
I believe that Fingolfin was in fact a king after Feanor abandoned him in Araman. It's not clear that Fingolfin's first rule over the Noldor was as king, or that he ever claimed to be a king until Feanor stole the ships.
------------------------------------------
I have posted on the contextual changes of Fingolfin's kingship (or lack thereof) in Tirion above.<hr></blockquote>
I have pointed out your errors and the problems with your sources.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> -------------------------------------------
Quote:
When Fingolfin's host entered Middle-earth, however, he unfurled his banners and had his trumpets sounded. This appears to be the action of a king (note Aragorn's march on Mordor displays similar claims of authority).
-----------------------------------------------
Or a great captain and chieftain, even acting as a king, but who wants to be THE King.<hr></blockquote>
There are no texts where any great captains or chieftains do such a thing. The unfurling of banners and sounding of trumpets (and procession of heralds, for that matter) is clearly a royal prerogative in Tolkien. Captains act on behalf of their leaders, not in their own rights.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> -----------------------------------------------
Quote:
Maedhros, however, was being diplomatic and trying to heal the division of his people. Ceding the kingship to Fingolfin was a significant act. He clearly was able to establish a new kingship (as were Turgon and Finrod) a year or two later.
---------------------------------------------
Maedhros 'waived his _claim_ to kingship over ALL the Noldor'. He established _A_ kingship over part of the Noldor.<hr></blockquote>
In the context I provided WAY UP ABOVE, that is,
The Silmarillion, Maedhros was king the moment his father died. Fingolfin's kingship appears to have begun when Feanor abandoned him, but Maedhros was still, technically, the heir of Finwe.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> --------------------------------------------
Quote:
The line of authority thus passes from Finwe to Feanor, from Feanor to Maedhros, and from Maedhros to Fingolfin. But in the meantime, new lines of authority were established by Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fingolfin's kingship was established by the fact that Feanor abandoned most of his people.
--------------------------------------------
Authority passes from Finwe to the rival claimants (Feanor and Fingolfin). Feanor who has already claimed the Kingship does not refer to himself as King when speaking to the Noldor when they are stopped by the Herald of the Valar: "Then will this valiant people send forth the heir of their King alone into banishment with his sons only?".
Interesting. He does not ask the Noldor if they will send forth their King, but only the 'heir' of their King. Why if he was actually their King does he not calll himself that? Because he was claiming the title, but had not been accepted as such?<hr></blockquote>
No, authority passes to Feanor, as I stipulated. You're trying to bring in a secondary and contradictory text which is (on the points of kingships) largely incompatible with
The Silmarillion.
We weren't speaking of "The Shibboleth of Feanor" we were speaking of
The Silmarillion. Big difference there. You would do well to disallow your unannounced shift of context since it's landed your argument in a mire of contradictions.
Fingolfin did not inherit his authority from Finwe in either account, that of
The Silmarillion or that of "The Shibboleth of Feanor". The Shibboleth does attempt to explain his name in a new context, but in constructing that context tears down other themes (the kingships established by Maedhros, Turgon, and Finrod early in the First Age) which are firmly embedded in the texts.
We are both dancing on pinheads here. My initial point stands because I had clearly indicated I was using
The Silmarillion as a source. Bringing in a secondary source to rebut
The Silmarillion is only useful if the secondary source is both authoritative and coherent, not to mention with related texts. In this case there is neither authority for the Shibboleth (because it contradicts everything else) nor even coherence.
The Shibboleth is useful for explaining J.R.R. Tolkien's latest thoughts on matters, and for clarifying issues where Christopher's editorializing suborned his father's thought (such as the parentage of Gil-galad).
If we hop all through the various texts, you or I could stay one jump ahead of one another but we'd never be addressing the same story.
In
The Silmarillion, the kingship remained with Finwe until he died, and then passed to Feanor, and then a new kingship began with Finarfin (after he turned back) and with Fingolfin (after Feanor abandoned him), and then the original kingship passed to Maedhros, who ceded it to Fingolfin.
http://www.xenite.org/Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy</a>
http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/Lord of the Rings Movie news</a>
http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml1500+ Hercules/Xena Links</a>
http://www.xenite.org/books/visualiz...dle-earth.htmlVisualizing Middle-earth, a book on Tolkien</a>
http://www.xenite.org/special_events/vicky_shaffer.htmlVicky Shaffer: Monster or mother? Is Brianna in any danger?</a>
</p>