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**lindil** · 03-22-2001, 11:33 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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canon and questions

MM said:"The "Shibboleth" can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A)
provides information which is not provided elsewhere without
conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which
Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than
to other texts."
lindil replies: While this is a resonable and arguable position it is not [I hope ] the only one.
I generally a have a few criteria for deciding the canonicity of a given point or text and that are similar to yours, but different in a couple of respects.
1] I don't cosider the Silm to be a 'primary text' [except in cases like Beren and Luthien where it virtually is the final form or ruin of doriath where the only other version is from the 30's]. I consider the versions in MR and WotJ and in some cases Lost Road to be the primary versions versions [ the non-Myth's Transformed versions } and while I put a great deal of weight behind CRT 's opinions and decisions he is since essentially having abandoned the Silm as a cohesive canon giving us dozens of alt. texts and no resolution to many matters and having not given us a complete and final account of just what about the Solm he would and would not keep, I propose more or less starting over w/ HoME as a base not the Silm as published.
2] I favor a later conception if it can be harmonized w/ out great damage to the story [thus MT fails in my and I believe I am correct in saying your opinion also] and while this Fingolfin as King conception creates difficulties for the MR and 77 versions , I am not sure yewt if they are to damaging to the text. They certainly give Feanor more reason [prideful ones I admit ] to have abandoned them and in general advances the subtlty and depth of the story. It is conceivable that since we don't know JRRt's mind as to wether he would have kept the setting aside of the sword - drawing by fingolfin and his words" Thou shalt lead and I will folow." I think w/ out a deep exploration of the texts and it's implications
it might be conceivable to keep both. there is need for some exploration of all this on a closer level and I propose starting a thread in the Silm forum for the Canonical issues and keeping this one open to follow-up on Gilthalions excellent Q's .which are sme unvoiced q's of mine as well.
some of which Michael, I think you have researched before [elven populations].

My girls beckon so...

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

03-22-2001, 11:33 AM	#40
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 510</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> canon and questions MM said:"The "Shibboleth" can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A) provides information which is not provided elsewhere without conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than to other texts." lindil replies: While this is a resonable and arguable position it is not [I hope ] the only one. I generally a have a few criteria for deciding the canonicity of a given point or text and that are similar to yours, but different in a couple of respects. 1] I don't cosider the Silm to be a 'primary text' [except in cases like Beren and Luthien where it virtually is the final form or ruin of doriath where the only other version is from the 30's]. I consider the versions in MR and WotJ and in some cases Lost Road to be the primary versions versions [ the non-Myth's Transformed versions } and while I put a great deal of weight behind CRT 's opinions and decisions he is since essentially having abandoned the Silm as a cohesive canon giving us dozens of alt. texts and no resolution to many matters and having not given us a complete and final account of just what about the Solm he would and would not keep, I propose more or less starting over w/ HoME as a base not the Silm as published. 2] I favor a later conception if it can be harmonized w/ out great damage to the story [thus MT fails in my and I believe I am correct in saying your opinion also] and while this Fingolfin as King conception creates difficulties for the MR and 77 versions , I am not sure yewt if they are to damaging to the text. They certainly give Feanor more reason [prideful ones I admit ] to have abandoned them and in general advances the subtlty and depth of the story. It is conceivable that since we don't know JRRt's mind as to wether he would have kept the setting aside of the sword - drawing by fingolfin and his words" Thou shalt lead and I will folow." I think w/ out a deep exploration of the texts and it's implications it might be conceivable to keep both. there is need for some exploration of all this on a closer level and I propose starting a thread in the Silm forum for the Canonical issues and keeping this one open to follow-up on Gilthalions excellent Q's .which are sme unvoiced q's of mine as well. some of which Michael, I think you have researched before [elven populations]. My girls beckon so... Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.