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Re: I started a new thread in Silm
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
So, if The Silmarillion won't serve we're just going to jump around from text to text? I'll accept going forward, but not going back. Since you've jumped to The Peoples of Middle-earth I insist we stay there, or go back to The Silmarillion.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have used sources other than the Silmarillion previously in this thread,<hr></blockquote>
You mentioned one source prior to my reference to
The Silmarillion, in response to my comment: "Anyway, it may be this statement or a similar one which confuses some people. All three of the royal families of the Eldar were represented in the descendants of Elros, but those descendants could not claim Ingwe as an ancestor."
At (3/20/01 7:59:17 pm) I took exception with your erroneous statements about the line of kingship, and you responded (3/20/01 10:54:30 pm) without establishing any references other than "Quenta Silmarillion}. I followed up with reference to
The Silmarillion at (3/20/01 11:40:10 pm).
So we were clearly using
The Silmarillion as the basis for discussion until you jumped outside the frame of reference to bring in the "Shibboleth".
Our comments were rooted in
The Silmarillion. Since the "Shibboleth" is problem-laden this whole exchange is pointless and misleading for lurkers.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Finfgolfin did not claim any kingship upon his father's death.
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This point stands. And you have not addressed the serious problems with your argument.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
The divisions of the Noldor appear to derive from Feanor's own actions and choices.
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Refer to quote in above post.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Which has nothing to do with the point I made.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Which refers to the actions of Feanor causing division.<hr></blockquote>
Wrong actions. If you're going to respond to
what I write, you would do well to stay on topic.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
I believe that Fingolfin was in fact a king after Feanor abandoned him in Araman. It's not clear that Fingolfin's first rule over the Noldor was as king, or that he ever claimed to be a king until Feanor stole the ships.
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have posted on the contextual changes of Fingolfin's kingship (or lack thereof) in Tirion above.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
I have pointed out your errors and the problems with your sources.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
No you have not.<hr></blockquote>
I have done so repeatedly, and will not keep pointing out the errors you refuse to admit to. They are posted above for everyone to see.
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Quothe MichaelMartinez:
When Fingolfin's host entered Middle-earth, however, he unfurled his banners and had his trumpets sounded. This appears to be the action of a king (note Aragorn's march on Mordor displays similar claims of authority).
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Or a great captain and chieftain, even acting as a king, but who wants to be THE King.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
There are no texts where any great captains or chieftains do such a thing. The unfurling of banners and sounding of trumpets (and procession of heralds, for that matter) is clearly a royal prerogative in Tolkien. Captains act on behalf of their leaders, not in their own rights.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
"But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners warched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwe...".
"But at last the might of Valinor came up out of the Weat, and the challenge of Eonwe filled the sky."<hr></blockquote>
Ingwe was a king, the last time I checked
The Silmarillion and related texts.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Maedhros, however, was being diplomatic and trying to heal the division of his people. Ceding the kingship to Fingolfin was a significant act. He clearly was able to establish a new kingship (as were Turgon and Finrod) a year or two later.
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Maedhros 'waived his _claim_ to kingship over ALL the Noldor'. He established _A_ kingship over part of the Noldor.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
In the context I provided WAY UP ABOVE, that is, The Silmarillion, Maedhros was king the moment his father died. Fingolfin's kingship appears to have begun when Feanor abandoned him, but Maedhros was still, technically, the heir of Finwe.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have been discussing 'The Kingship of the Noldor', not 'The Kingship of the Noldor as it appears in The Silmarillion'. <hr></blockquote>
The Kingship of the Noldor is canonically documented only in
The Silmarillion and its constituent texts, which do not inclue "The Shibboleth of Feanor". You might as well draw upon
The Book of Lost Tales for a discussion of Hobbits. There would be an equal amount of relevance.
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Quote Michael Martinez:
The line of authority thus passes from Finwe to Feanor, from Feanor to Maedhros, and from Maedhros to Fingolfin. But in the meantime, new lines of authority were established by Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fingolfin's kingship was established by the fact that Feanor abandoned most of his people.<hr></blockquote>
This point stands.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
We weren't speaking of "The Shibboleth of Feanor" we were speaking of The Silmarillion. Big difference there. You would do well to disallow your unannounced shift of context since it's landed your argument in a mire of contradictions.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
_WE_ were not doing any such thing. <hr></blockquote>
See above. We were indeed.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Fingolfin did not inherit his authority from Finwe in either account, that of The Silmarillion or that of "The Shibboleth of Feanor". The Shibboleth does attempt to explain his name in a new context, but in constructing that context tears down other themes (the kingships established by Maedhros, Turgon, and Finrod early in the First Age) which are firmly embedded in the texts.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
The contradiction is there if you wish to interpret it as such, I prefer to justify and reconcile _apparent_ contradictions before making the claim that it is a contradiction . So there were certainly various 'kingships' before the fall of Fingolfin, but they became became more seperate and divided after his death, especially with the ruin of Beleriand.<hr></blockquote>
There is no interpretation required to see that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote that no one but Fingolfin was a king until after Fingolfin's death. Hence, there is an incredible contradiction which you are attempting to obfuscate with completely invalid attempts at reconciliation. Ignoring the facts doesn't reconcile the contradictions.
In "The Shibboleth of Feanor", there is only one Noldorin king in Beleriand from the time of Fingolfin's arrival until his death: Fingolfin. And that clearly contradicts everything in the primary texts. Hence, the points you draw upon in "The Shibboleth" are without merit. You're wasting your time on this.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
We are both dancing on pinheads here. My initial point stands because I had clearly indicated I was using The Silmarillion as a source. Bringing in a secondary source to rebut The Silmarillion is only useful if the secondary source is both authoritative and coherent, not to mention with related texts. In this case there is neither authority for the Shibboleth (because it contradicts everything else) nor even coherence.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion
We have both be using 'The Silmarillion' as _a_ source.<hr></blockquote>
Quite true. I reluctantly agreed to use the "Shibboleth" because I knew it would only undermine your argument.
Basically, you're trying to prove the impossible: That Fingolfin was caonically a king of the Noldor before he arrived in Middle-earth. He indisputably was not.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
In The Silmarillion, the kingship remained with Finwe until he died, and then passed to Feanor, and then a new kingship began with Finarfin (after he turned back) and with Fingolfin (after Feanor abandoned him), and then the original kingship passed to Maedhros, who ceded it to Fingolfin.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
A great theory but 'The Silmarillion' does not support you.<hr></blockquote>
If you'd read
The Silmarillion (and I have certainly provided a few citations to help in this respect) you would see that it certainly does. I'm only quoting the book, after all. To suggest it doesn't support me is rather absurd.
I don't have to find a statement in the book which says "Fingolfin was not king of the Noldor until he reached Middle-earth" because I have already provided sufficient proofs to show who WAS king of the Noldor in Aman at various times. It follows that since Fingolfin wasn't in the very short list of kings, he wasn't king of the Noldor.
You will find absolutely no statement anywhere in the book which makes Fingolfin a king while Finwe and Feanor were alive and in Aman.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Wrong divisions of the Noldor. Look at the passage where Feanor abandons the majority in Araman. The fleet was manned "only by those who had fought" at Alqualonde. That could include some of Fingon's warriors, though not Fingon himself
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Correct divisions.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
No, they are the WRONG divisions because I raised the point and I know darned good and well what I was referring to. I have explained what I was referring to. Thank you for not rewriting what I say.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
You were responding to my posted responce to lindil, which spoke of Maedhros leading the Feanorians after Feanor's death but that the majority of the Noldor were still with Fingolfin.<hr></blockquote>
What I'm responding to has nothing to do with the fact that you keep bringing up the wrong stuff when addressing what I wrote.
I get to pick and choose what I'm referring to, no one else. Leave it at that.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Unless someone forgot to tell Fingon that Feanor had led the way, it's pretty certain he had a good idea of whom he was helping.
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Fingon went to the aid of his kin. Feanor was his uncle and hence his kin.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Everyone knew Feanor was in the lead. The book states quite clearly that Fingon thought the Noldor were being attacked, and that included Feanor.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
You started this by saying that since Fingon rushed to Feanor's aid Feanor was acknowleged king of all the Noldor (or words to that effect).<hr></blockquote>
I said no such thing. Please stop putting words into my mouth. That is the most infuriating way to disagree with someone.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
I'm actually quite satisfied to stay with the text I was discussing originally" The Silmarillion. Staying in context is the only way to keep any meaning to this discussion.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I am quite satisfied to look at the full context of the matter under discussion, The Kingship of The Noldor.<hr></blockquote>
As established in
The Silmarillion. If you had really wanted to bring in "The Shibboleth" to support your argument, you should have done so to begin with so it would be clear that was what you wanted.
And since the "Shibboleth" is irrelevant to
The Silmarillion on this matter, it was a complete waste of your and my time (not to mention the time of everyone reading this interminably long exchange of who-said-what).
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Quote:<hr> Quothe Michael Martinez:
Maehdros is not a "chieftain" in The Silmarillion. There is no such title and I was merely flinging Tar-Elenion's nit-picking back at him over the absence of words in the text (which is why we suddenly found ourselves in a discussion of "The Shibboleth of Feanor" -- conveniently, the word "chieftain" may be found there).
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Actually I was quoting from 'Quendi and Eldar' regarding the 'chieftain' comment. <hr></blockquote>
Disallowed, as I stated previously.
Ditto for point 16.
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Quothe lindil:
MM:"But Fingolfin had not been acknowledged as king or declared to be king, and had not claimed the kingship (or any kingship).
lindil: but he had been ruling the Noldor of Tirion for nigh in a decade [of Valinorean years?]
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Show me where The Silmarillion says he was a king in Tirion. That was the point of the entire exercise.
There was only one king at the time: Feanor.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
There was only one King at the time Fingolfin ruled in Tirion: Finwe.<hr></blockquote>
Wrong time. Lindil's reference to Fingolfin's rule in Tirion during the Exilic period doesn't change the fact that I was speaking of Feanor's kingship in Tirion after Finwe's death.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Lindil, The Peoples of Middle-earth is useful for dealing with issues of canon in The Silmarillion but not for dealing with issues of text in The Silmarillion.
You might as well quote Shakespeare.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Then it is a good thing we are discussing the 'Kingship of the Noldor' and not 'the text in the Silmarillion'.<hr></blockquote>
See above. You should drop this silly argument.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
There is no provision in any other text for the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arising after the fall of Fingolfin. The "Shibboleth" can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A) provides information which is not provided elsewhere without conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than to other texts.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
In your opinion. Not in mine.<hr></blockquote>
I wasn't expressing an opinion. But feel free to correct the facts by citing a relevant text. Use any volume from
The History of Middle-earth from
Morgoth's Ring onward.
I await correction on this issue with great anticipation.
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