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Old 07-07-2004, 07:20 AM   #13
HerenIstarion
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One should listen to Ents wisdom, for things done in a hurry...

Quote:
Originally Posted by osse
Also, your theory has a flaw: What about those creatures that are 'purely' evil..
But there is no ‘pure evil’ as such. That's (or, rather, it's opposite), what I've tried to bring across with simplified Shelob, for what is put down to as:

Quote:
end: death to all other life / means / death to all other life
may be rendered as:

end: preserve own life/ means: death to all other life

And life preservation is the thing good in itself. Evilness of action is expressed by ‘death to all other life’ part of the fork. So, the origin of evil (death to all life) is good (preservation of own life)

Quote:
I am evil, you are evil... even my cat is evil.
For one, cats are evil (I know it – as I do own two cats), it is just style they’ve got to them that masks their ultimate brutality and ‘bastardness’. For another (and you did lure me out into the deep, the thing which I tried to avoid with alleged ‘simplification’) – it is arguable that whole animal ‘strife for survival’ kind of life is as it is due to the Fall of Man

Let me confess that in watering the concept down, I rather hoped to work out definition to work for everybody, regardless their faith. I must admit the essay was not very succesful, as, I’m sure, you imply with the quote (I'm evil, you are evil) above, it is impossible to make moral choice – which action on what time is evil, and which not

But before rewriting the maxim of ‘on the expense of the others’ (let it be labelled as ‘maxim A’) let me explore the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by osse
One person's sense of evil or wrong, is often warped by their beliefs, upbringing and values, as well as personal experience
Verily so. But deviations are very minor. Generally, virtues are always the same, as vices are always the same. It is form they take that is different from culture to culture. To have an analogue – in all societies throughout the world courage was praised, not cowardice. But expressions of courage might be different. Similarly, ‘love for thy neighbour’ is praised everywhere, not only in Christianity, , the definition of ‘neighbour’ being different only. For Christianity, it is everybody, for Islam, Muslims only (though Jews and Christians are tolerated as opposed to Pagans), for some obscene tribe lost in the mountains it may be only members of the tribe who are considered ‘neighbours’, and than all the strangers get killed. But the main fact – that man should love his pairs, is one and the same for everybody.

Now, am I allowed to rewrite the ‘simplistic maxim A’? It may stand thus:

Something achieving its ends (even if ends are good at some point) by means of harming others (Let it be labelled ‘maxim A1’)

It says pretty much the same, but harm done to ‘others’ may be more explicit this way.

I’m aware what may pop up to anyone’s mind following such a maxim. “what about hunting tiger – is it evil?” In a way I render the issue down to this point, I have no answer to that question.

But if I were to let Eru into it, than I’d say – ‘tis for the Fall of Man only’ And, as ‘Fall of Man’ is not seen from LoTR in an explicit way, so the initial question was dealt with.

Final form, following the last paragraph, would sound like:

Evil’s is anything to put itself forward, to prefer its own will to the Will of its Creator

(Let me label it as maxim B (nailing it down in one word, it’d be Pride, and so the Fall of Man came about to pass))

Maxim B contains in itself, though is not filled up by, the A and A1 maxims

If you are ready to accept ‘maxim B’ as a whole, fine. If not, than I can contrive no better than maxims A and A1

So, having written all of the above without much consideration and in a hurry, I hope that it is moderately articulate, and fly off to meet pressing requirements of RL, with the promise to come back to the issue later on

PS. osse, I’m really flattered by your just revealed attitude to my musings on the fora. My gratitude and compliments in return
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Last edited by HerenIstarion; 07-07-2004 at 07:28 AM.
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