[Kuruharan]

I remain unconvinced. I don’t believe that a trait has to be found exclusively in villains in order for it to be condemned. If it is considered a flaw then it has merited some degree of condemnation.

Turin does bring disaster on others, no doubt, but he is remembered, held up as a hero & elf friend by those in later ages

I believe this is true because people like this make such exciting stories. They are not the type of leader that I want to be following or try to exist alongside. The Chinese curse “May you live in interesting times” should have a corollary that says something like “May you follow an exciting leader.”

Whatever Turin achieves in life - & it wasn’t all bad - he brought periods of peace as a result of his actions - was a direct result of his pride & refusal to submit.

The periods of peace he brought were only breathing spaces while Morgoth prepared to unleash his bolt. Things always (save for the last act where Turin died) ended up much worse than they had before. His little kingdom around Amon Rhud was destroyed, followed by the much worse destruction of Nargothrond. The poor man was just a military disaster waiting to happen. It was much better to stay away from him.

It is in the nature of the hero to suffer from this ‘fault’ - especially in the ‘heroic age’ of the Elder Days.

But there were heroes who did not behave in such ways as Turin and Feanor. Finrod leaps to mind. Is Finrod less heroic because he did not die because of his overwhelming pride, or is his story somehow less compelling?

Yet, heroes are heroes, & they are necessary sometimes - for all their faults.

Well, yes, constructive heroes are. However, I think that heroes guided by their pride rather than their duty are much more trouble than they are worth. Look at all the suffering that Turin and Feanor unleashed (although I’d accuse Feanor of being a much greater offender in this regard). Beortnoth too (returning to the original topic of discussion) allowed much suffering because of his pride. I’m obviously not an Anglo-Saxon in mentality but I would not want such a man commanding me if I were a soldier or responsible for the defense of part of my land if I were a king. Such a man is downright counterproductive.

Perhaps ambiguity in this issue from Tolkien is a reflection of his understanding of the mentality of the society. They placed a certain value on the creation of a good tale through your life that had value beyond practical results.