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Nar · 09-06-2002, 08:59 PM

I have no doubt, LMP that orcs like being orcs, I just don't think they liked being cannonfodder. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I don't think captains like Shagrat or Ugluk were treated fairly, --geez, I guess it's only to be expected, considering their employer: 'Well, my first day on the job at DarkLordMart -- what do you mean I don't get health coverage and torture indemnity for my family! I have to stay late tormenting hapless captives in the parking lot with no overtime pay??? You ... you're not only the Forces of Evil, you're an abusive employer!'

Seriously, LMP, I don't feel particularly sentimental about orcs: their idea of fun is torturing captives to death! That, well, that's not nice. Not at all.

I have to say, though, that the human bullies I have known had a choice. Most of the ones I observed weren't even working out of pain, as psychologists would have us believe-- I saw a lot going for power and status, and others, sidekicks and wannabes taking out their frustrations at not being pack leader. I rarely saw anyone hassling people for a recognizably human reason like buried hatred over a horrible life-- they fried people's psyches out of boredom, ambition, minor frusteration, the most trivial of reasons. They always had a choice, and from my observations not a difficult one at all. And they could always stop being bullies anytime they wanted.

As far as ruthless scavenging and predatory behavior, orcs were orcs and, I agree, liked being that way. It's not that different from some human behavior we see today, but with orcs there's not much else.

However, when it comes to metaphysically serving the forces of darkness, where would an orc go if he(she) didn't want to do that? How would he(she) get out of it? I don't like that orcs HAVE to be in Sauron's army, that it's assumed by all, including the good guys, that they must and will be not just average predators but part and parcel of THE ENEMY. No one ever tries with orcs. Probably, given their nature, they'd be for the bad and against the good anyway, but no one ever checks. There I have some sympathy for them.

Part of the orc's automatic allegiance with Sauron is the nature of the story's mythological time: being a predator means being with the enemy, because everything's reflective of its deeper moral and mythological place in the universe. So I can understand that the predator types would all be with The Enemy, of course! But the beauty of this story is that it spills beyond those myths and archetypes-- that Tolkien the author's generous enough to write the orcs fully with all their orcish feelings.

Tolkien does not write the orcs merely as little nuggets of nightmare, putting nothing into them that doesn't serve to illustrate our fears. Tolkien's orcs have a crazy integrity as characters: they're not just fearsome, they're cranky and frusterated: they hate their jobs and they'd slink off if they could get away with it. That's true generosity, to grant even your nightmare creatures their own integrity as living sub-created beings.

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

09-06-2002, 08:59 PM	#10
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	I have no doubt, LMP that orcs like being orcs, I just don't think they liked being cannonfodder. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I don't think captains like Shagrat or Ugluk were treated fairly, --geez, I guess it's only to be expected, considering their employer: 'Well, my first day on the job at DarkLordMart -- what do you mean I don't get health coverage and torture indemnity for my family! I have to stay late tormenting hapless captives in the parking lot with no overtime pay??? You ... you're not only the Forces of Evil, you're an abusive employer!' Seriously, LMP, I don't feel particularly sentimental about orcs: their idea of fun is torturing captives to death! That, well, that's not nice. Not at all. I have to say, though, that the human bullies I have known had a choice. Most of the ones I observed weren't even working out of pain, as psychologists would have us believe-- I saw a lot going for power and status, and others, sidekicks and wannabes taking out their frustrations at not being pack leader. I rarely saw anyone hassling people for a recognizably human reason like buried hatred over a horrible life-- they fried people's psyches out of boredom, ambition, minor frusteration, the most trivial of reasons. They always had a choice, and from my observations not a difficult one at all. And they could always stop being bullies anytime they wanted. As far as ruthless scavenging and predatory behavior, orcs were orcs and, I agree, liked being that way. It's not that different from some human behavior we see today, but with orcs there's not much else. However, when it comes to metaphysically serving the forces of darkness, where would an orc go if he(she) didn't want to do that? How would he(she) get out of it? I don't like that orcs HAVE to be in Sauron's army, that it's assumed by all, including the good guys, that they must and will be not just average predators but part and parcel of THE ENEMY. No one ever tries with orcs. Probably, given their nature, they'd be for the bad and against the good anyway, but no one ever checks. There I have some sympathy for them. Part of the orc's automatic allegiance with Sauron is the nature of the story's mythological time: being a predator means being with the enemy, because everything's reflective of its deeper moral and mythological place in the universe. So I can understand that the predator types would all be with The Enemy, of course! But the beauty of this story is that it spills beyond those myths and archetypes-- that Tolkien the author's generous enough to write the orcs fully with all their orcish feelings. Tolkien does not write the orcs merely as little nuggets of nightmare, putting nothing into them that doesn't serve to illustrate our fears. Tolkien's orcs have a crazy integrity as characters: they're not just fearsome, they're cranky and frusterated: they hate their jobs and they'd slink off if they could get away with it. That's true generosity, to grant even your nightmare creatures their own integrity as living sub-created beings. [ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]