The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post

**lindil** · 09-16-2002, 10:51 AM

nar:I think there's some text somewhere saying that it was actually Sauron who twisted the orcs into being by Morgoth's will.

lindil: yes I think it is the myth's transformed section of Morgoth's ring.

As to wether only Morgoth's opwer could do it? I don't know. This subject is not been a major study for me. but I do seem to recall 2 relevant points:
1> Morgoth was in captivity in valinor when Sauron began his evil program.
2> Morgoth at some point [ pre or post confinement, don't know] deseminated most of his power into the general corrupting of the very matter of Arda. To the point where in it is stated somewhere by JRRT [ MR again I think] that Sauron had more power availble to him in the 3rd age than Morgoth because he expended so much of it on controlling his creatures [ dragons and such esp. use alot of 'will' I guess].

So my guess is that Sauron couldhave blended orcs w/ people, perhaps in a neutered fashion [ meaning the uruks could not reproduce but only be bred]thus creating the uruks. Saruman being suitably impressed and intruiged also did the uruk thing but in addition created a '1/2 orc 1/2 man ' such as the 'squint-eyed southerner'.

wether that hypothesis jives w/ JRRT's later speculation I don't know but I kind of think that is what JRRT was thinking when he wrote LotR. He then speculated on the Hroa/Fea difficulties and if I recall never wholly resolved it.

I hope I have not bred more confusion. i suppose it is time for me to really read the Orcish fea[r] thread and the relevant Morgoth's Ring m,aterial again.

sorry Frodo B. about the confusing post. In the middle of it I started to realize that Uruk's were not a creation solely of Saruman. [ I have been focusing on Elven lore and the Silm and such for so long that I forgot things I knew decades ago!] so my theorizing shifted. I should have gone back and redone the first part of the post, agaoin sorry for the confusion.
The last line was a [partially ill-humoured] speculation that perhaps grima fathered some of the 1/2 orcs.

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

09-16-2002, 10:51 AM	#15
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	nar:I think there's some text somewhere saying that it was actually Sauron who twisted the orcs into being by Morgoth's will. lindil: yes I think it is the myth's transformed section of Morgoth's ring. As to wether only Morgoth's opwer could do it? I don't know. This subject is not been a major study for me. but I do seem to recall 2 relevant points: 1> Morgoth was in captivity in valinor when Sauron began his evil program. 2> Morgoth at some point [ pre or post confinement, don't know] deseminated most of his power into the general corrupting of the very matter of Arda. To the point where in it is stated somewhere by JRRT [ MR again I think] that Sauron had more power availble to him in the 3rd age than Morgoth because he expended so much of it on controlling his creatures [ dragons and such esp. use alot of 'will' I guess]. So my guess is that Sauron couldhave blended orcs w/ people, perhaps in a neutered fashion [ meaning the uruks could not reproduce but only be bred]thus creating the uruks. Saruman being suitably impressed and intruiged also did the uruk thing but in addition created a '1/2 orc 1/2 man ' such as the 'squint-eyed southerner'. wether that hypothesis jives w/ JRRT's later speculation I don't know but I kind of think that is what JRRT was thinking when he wrote LotR. He then speculated on the Hroa/Fea difficulties and if I recall never wholly resolved it. I hope I have not bred more confusion. i suppose it is time for me to really read the Orcish fea[r] thread and the relevant Morgoth's Ring m,aterial again. sorry Frodo B. about the confusing post. In the middle of it I started to realize that Uruk's were not a creation solely of Saruman. [ I have been focusing on Elven lore and the Silm and such for so long that I forgot things I knew decades ago!] so my theorizing shifted. I should have gone back and redone the first part of the post, agaoin sorry for the confusion. The last line was a [partially ill-humoured] speculation that perhaps grima fathered some of the 1/2 orcs. [ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.