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Child of the 7th Age · 10-06-2002, 11:36 PM

Thank you both for your comments.

Estelyn --

Ioreth does contribute to the story, but she does not have the same respect from either Tolkien or the reader which Andreth and Adanel do. Still, she does have a role to play as an "older" mortal woman.

Lindil --

Perhaps you are correct about Arwen. I initially had difficulty seeing her in this role because of how she responded at Aragorn's death. But, now that I think on it, Andreth herself had multiple questions and much bitterness regarding the fate of man, so such a response does not in itself exclude Arwen. Still there is a difference in Arwen's situation. Having lived so long among the Elven kin, she would necessarily have had more time to learn the lore. For Andreth and Adanel, on the other hand, life was both more fleeting and treasured. Their choices in life seem more poignant because of this, at least to me.

Regarding your comments on how Tolkien matured as a writer, I heartily agree. I find many of the later writings very precious. I wish that CT had not felt so ambivalent about the "philosophical and religious" issues that many of these reflect. Hopefully, the revised Silm will include Andreth, at least as an appendix.

Is there another possibility as well though? The earliest houses of the Edain, certainly that of Beor, seemed in some respects much closer to the Elven kin (and to some of the Valar) than those in later ages. Is it possible that this drop in "wise-women" may have been paralleled by a corresponding drop in "wise-men" as well. In other words, there may have been a general drop in wisdom and lore among Men, of which the women were but one example. For example, can the later ages replicate a Tuor or an Earendil or a Beren, any more than an Andreth or Adanel? I say this even knowing the glory of Numenor and its early kings. But, to me, they do not touch the First Age.

The one later figure who seems to qualify in this ancient mode is Aragorn himself who was raised by an Elf and who had intimate ties with a Maia. It's interesting that he is given the ring of Barahir which again emphasizes his connections with the House of Beor and the Edain of the First Age.

I'm uncertain if this makes sense, but I did wonder about it.

sharon

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

10-06-2002, 11:36 PM	#4
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Thank you both for your comments. Estelyn -- Ioreth does contribute to the story, but she does not have the same respect from either Tolkien or the reader which Andreth and Adanel do. Still, she does have a role to play as an "older" mortal woman. Lindil -- Perhaps you are correct about Arwen. I initially had difficulty seeing her in this role because of how she responded at Aragorn's death. But, now that I think on it, Andreth herself had multiple questions and much bitterness regarding the fate of man, so such a response does not in itself exclude Arwen. Still there is a difference in Arwen's situation. Having lived so long among the Elven kin, she would necessarily have had more time to learn the lore. For Andreth and Adanel, on the other hand, life was both more fleeting and treasured. Their choices in life seem more poignant because of this, at least to me. Regarding your comments on how Tolkien matured as a writer, I heartily agree. I find many of the later writings very precious. I wish that CT had not felt so ambivalent about the "philosophical and religious" issues that many of these reflect. Hopefully, the revised Silm will include Andreth, at least as an appendix. Is there another possibility as well though? The earliest houses of the Edain, certainly that of Beor, seemed in some respects much closer to the Elven kin (and to some of the Valar) than those in later ages. Is it possible that this drop in "wise-women" may have been paralleled by a corresponding drop in "wise-men" as well. In other words, there may have been a general drop in wisdom and lore among Men, of which the women were but one example. For example, can the later ages replicate a Tuor or an Earendil or a Beren, any more than an Andreth or Adanel? I say this even knowing the glory of Numenor and its early kings. But, to me, they do not touch the First Age. The one later figure who seems to qualify in this ancient mode is Aragorn himself who was raised by an Elf and who had intimate ties with a Maia. It's interesting that he is given the ring of Barahir which again emphasizes his connections with the House of Beor and the Edain of the First Age. I'm uncertain if this makes sense, but I did wonder about it. sharon [ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.